Sean Behr

You know,  the number one thing that always resonates for me is I don't care what job title you have, I don't care what department you work in, I don't care how much money you make, I don't care any of that inside your own organization. Become known as the person who solves the biggest problems. If you, if you become known as the best problem solver, you will never have to work on a resume ever again in your life.

Nasser Oudjidane

‍ Hello and welcome to our series of Scaling Stories, a discussion with leaders about their lessons building teams at some of the world's fastest growing companies. I'm thrilled to introduce our guest today, Sean Behr the CEO of Fountain. Sean, a huge welcome, and thank you for joining. To get started, can you share a little introduction about you and your background ?

Sean Behr

‍Yeah. Well first off, Nasser, it's great to be with you. Always fun to talk about HR technology and how it's changing the world and what, what people are working on, and I think what we've all learned over the last couple years, how critical. Hiring and retaining and finding the right people for your business is so so it's always fun to have the opportunity to chat about these things. You know, you know, my background, I'm a, I'm a technology entrepreneur, so I you know, have always sort of worked in, in the tech space. Fortunately for me, I've been able to jump around to different industries, which gives me sort of a unique perspective on things. I spent the early part of my career building. An e-commerce company ultimately took that public and, and sold that company to eBay. I built a, a company in the advertising technology space and sold that company at a O l I built a company in the automotive technology space. I sold that to Carr Global. And now building Fountain, which is in the hiring technology space. And in between there, I've always been able to work with lots of entrepreneurs and people starting companies. And I've had the f fortune of working with them and, and investing and helping and advising. So you know, my career has been largely based on how do we bring technology to bear in large industries to make a big difference 

‍Nasser Oudjidane

What an illustrious career and journey. Can you tell us a little bit more about Fountain? What is its mission and. Long-term plants. 

Sean Behr

Yeah. Fountain you know, look fountain, we always start with why, you know, why, why is fountain here? And you know, a number of years ago we, we wrote our mission statement, and that mission statement has not changed. Lots of things have changed. You know, the logo and the, the color and even the name of the company has changed, but the mission has never changed. And the mission. to open opportunities for the global workforce. That's why we exist. You know, we, we've always focused on how can we, as a company, open opportunities for global workers, for people around the world and for us, you know, our. our specific focus is in the blue collar, gray collar, hourly worker. The frontline worker, right? There's lots and lots of companies focused on sort of the, the knowledge worker, right? The person who sits on Zoom calls and does Excel spreadsheets and and attends budget meetings. Many, many workers around the world though. Sit on Zoom calls. They don't attend budget meetings. They, they do things like deliver packages. They deliver food. They work in restaurants and retail stores. They work in nursing homes and call centers, and they really power our economies around the world. Whether you're in somewhere in Asia, whether you're in cross Europe, or whether you're here in North America, those kinds of workers are the backbone of our, of our economy. And fountain's full focus. Is to open opportunities for those workers. And we work with large organizations that, that hire those kinds of workers and really make it way easier and way more effective to hire those workers at scale. Last year, over 3 million workers. We're hired at our customers around the world in 77 different countries around the world. So that, that's, that's our mission. That's will continue to be our mission. In fact, you know, as much as we love a r r and, and you know, CAC and L T V and you know, new customers and all kinds of things, I think the number that we're most proud about is when we open a door, when we open an opportunity. an hourly worker to take their next step in their journey. That's a really, really compelling thing and something I think every fountain is really proud about. 

Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah, absolutely. It seems 3 million. What a phenomenal number, and seems that you've, you've opened a, an opportunity here for. what can be described as the the underserved workforce. Yeah. Where you said it's, it's the vast majority, but it often gets overlooked. Why do you think it's important that you need to have a specific piece of technology to serve the labor aspect? 

Sean Behr

Yeah, it's a really great. question and a really you know, simple answer, but maybe a more complex answer. Right. You know, if you think about the kind, you know, we already talked about the kind of work that different kind of workers do. Some people deliver packages. Some people work on spreadsheets all day. Some people serve you food in a restaurant, some people, you know go to marketing meetings, right? That's the kind of work you do, the hiring process to hire one of those workers. Given that working in a retail store is very, very different than working and working on a spreadsheet all day, using the same piece of software, the same technology. To hire those kinds of workers. You're ultimately underserving one of those groups. You know, basic things like, you know, if you're hiring somebody to work in a marketing department, It would be a really good idea to look at that person's CV to find out do they have the kind of marketing experience that you're looking for, right? And you'd wanna see where they've worked and how long they worked there and you know, where, what kind of educational and training and certificates they have and all those things. If you're hiring somebody to, you know, stock shelves in a retail store, someone's CV is probably a lot less valuable. In fact, you could argue it's sort of counterproductive, right? People who generally are great at stocking shelves probably, you know, don't spend a lot of time polishing their resume. and, and vice versa. By the way, if I took somebody who spends all day sitting in marketing meetings and I said, Hey, you need to deliver 600 packages today. They would fail at that, right? Their CV would be irrelevant for delivering packages or working with seniors in a nursing home or something like that. And so having the right technology to hire those people is really critical. I'll give you another example. . When you're hiring a, a marketing person or a finance person or a salesperson, you're typically hiring one really perfect person for your organization. You're looking for the best possible fit for your organization. When you're hiring 400 warehouse workers across the country, it's a different game. I mean, you're not looking for one person, you're looking for 400 people. And if you don't hire those 400 people, all of a sudden you can't pack as many boxes. You can't get as many boxes onto cars and trucks. So the, the cost of this is really, really apparent for our customers. But that's the difference between using the right piece of technology and the wrong piece of technology and the result you might get. 

Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah, and there's also an additional difference, which is the, the hourly component plus the, the salaried component as well. And is this all baked into the software itself to accommodate for, you know, these differences? 

Sean Behr

Yeah, I mean, whether you're hiring people hourly or, or salaried or, or as independent contractors, right? You have lots of different pay models, right? The question is, are you, are you hiring somebody who's gonna be in the field and are you hiring a lot of them, right? That's the core question. So maybe you are hiring somebody who is gonna be salaried, but you're hiring a thousand of them at a time. In that kind of a, in that kind of a hiring process, automation and, and efficiency is really important if you're hiring one person, sure. Being more efficient helps, but it doesn't really move the needle to be really efficient. If you're only hiring a single individual. 

Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah. And you mentioned automation here, which is, you know, a aligned to speed. And this is obviously really important when hiring for for, for these types of workers, why is speed. so important. And perhaps could you also touch upon the candidate experience here as well, because they're both kind of mutually reinforcing here. 

Sean Behr

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, speed is, look, I would argue speed is probably valuable in every hiring decision, in every hiring experience that you have. But it's particularly acute in the hourly worker world, right? Typically, you know, for a, for a salaried professional. , it's got 10 years of experience. They can take their time. They might take a few weeks. They might take a few weeks off between jobs. They might really take their time and consider where they wanna work and which job. For an hourly worker, they may not have that luxury. They may need a job next week. Because they need to make money to be able to pay their rent and pay schooling and pay for their car and pay for gas and whatever else they need to pay for. And so speed is really, really important for the candidate. What I think is becoming really important is speed is really important for the employer and the employer, right? These workers are in high demand. I mean, the demand for these workers has never been higher. , and so you can assume that if they're applying for your job, they're probably applying to a number of other jobs, sometimes 8, 10, 12, 15 jobs. If you're applying to 15 jobs. Whoever does really great engagement, who really gives you a great experience, but does it quickly, probably has the competitive edge. On somebody else. And to give you a kind of a real world example, let's say I go and I apply to five jobs on a Friday night. Okay? I, I'm ready to get a new job. I apply to five hourly jobs on a Friday night for two of them, or for one of them. I hear back immediately and the per and, and it's a, it's a great experience. It's on, I'm on my mobile. , it asks me a few questions and immediately lets me schedule an interview and it lets me schedule an interview for Saturday or Sunday. Pretty good. I'm, I'm interested. Okay. I go to the interview, I get the job maybe in parallel on Monday and Tuesday. I hear back from some of the other companies that I applied to on Friday night, and they tell me we're very interested in talking to. Think about where among who, among those companies has the best job of getting me. It's the person who I interviewed with on Saturday. In fact, if I get the job on Saturday, I may not even, I may not even respond. On Tuesday, I'm gone. I already accepted the job. In fact, I'm getting ready to, to, you know, do my orientation or sign my letter or do my p. And you are now finally getting around to contacting me. I'm probably gone. You've gotta move fast and, and by the way, especially when the roles are really competitive, right? If it's a job that nobody wants, you can probably take your time. But if it's a warehouse worker in a major warehousing area, those workers are really, really in high demand. Whoever gets to them with a really good experience first. Is gonna probably win the day. And that's why speed is so important and why the candidate experience is so important. Like how do you do, how do you provide a great experience to that worker? Not when they come in the first day. Sure, you have to do that, but how do you provide a great candidate experience and great worker experience from the very first day that I engage with you? And I think if you think about it, I know a lot of your listeners are, are probably knowledge workers, right? Just to kind of bring it home for all of us. Like you, we've all been, you know, we've all applied to jobs or we've all had experiences where, you know, we wound up not working there, you know, but the company, even if the company didn't hire you, but they did a great job. they had a great experience for you. They took care of you. You knew where you stood at the end of the day. You didn't get the role you wanted, but you had a great experience. Even though you don't work for that company, you probably walked away with a positive experience. And if somebody ever asks you, Hey, would you recommend Company X? You can say, you know what? I applied for a job there. I didn't get the. , but everyone I met was incredible. I knew exactly where I stood. It was easy. I would do it again. Highly recommend them. And so that's, that's an example of a candidate experience really benefiting an organization even when they don't wind up hiring the person.

Nasser Oudjidane

Right, yeah. It, it just got me thinking when you were talking about how, how alike the candidates can also be customers for the brands that, that you work with. Yeah. So these candidates could actually be people who end up purchasing, ordering, for instance, using that brand. Exactly. And the the experience that you get when using that brand is extremely higher. You make an order, you're notified immediately. Thank you for your order. And that's candidates and I think all of us in this type of economy have come to expect and it's only natural that this follows through when, when you're in a A job hunt. 

Sean Behr

‍ Yeah. Exactly. 

Nasser Oudjidane‍

Can we talk about why has this changed? I mean, I'm talking about the market. You mentioned it's never been tougher. You've, you've, you've spoken about demand. What are you seeing when, when speaking to your customers about the labor market? Why do you think it's so incredibly challenging? 

Sean Behr

Yeah, it's it's a really, really challenging market. I think a couple of things that have, that have Dr dramatically shifted. So, first of all, thing I'll say is it's a net positive for the world. I mean, hourly workers having more options is a good thing. That's a very good thing for the world. And so, so from a macro picture, really, really positive thing. The thing that's interesting, that's changed, two things have really changed. One is technology, and two is supply or competition. What I would say is competition and supply. One on the technology side. There was a day not long ago when many stores relied on walk-ins for the vast majority of their applicants. People literally walked in to a Taco Bell or a Greg's or wherever you are in the world, and they asked for an application. I mean, it was sort of like for us in the digital world, it was sort of like organic traffic. People who literally just came to your website, people who walked into your store and said, I wanna work here. That doesn't happen very much. You know, people don't walk into a Taco Bell and say, can I have an application? They go online, they're on, they're on their mobile device, they're applying for jobs, they're on job boards. They're doing all kinds of things way before they ever consider walking into a retail location and asking for a paper Applic. To fill out and pen, those days are gone. So it's kinda on the technology side. That's something that's dramatically shifted. What's happened on the supply or the competition side is there's just more options for the hourly worker. You know, you take somebody like McDonald's or KFC or you know, depending on where your listeners are, Greg's or whoever it is, depending on where they are in the world. Those stores thought that their major competition for workers and labor were other restaurants like them. That is true. Still, their competition is still other restaurants like them. The difference is, is they have new competitors for labor, so that same worker who might wanna work for one of those restaurants I just mentioned, they also might wanna drive for Uber. they might wanna drive for DoorDash or just eat Takeaway or Deliveroo, or you know, whoever it might be in the world, right? They might wanna drive for Lyft, right? On top of that, they might also wanna work for Amazon. They might wanna deliver packages for Amazon or working an Amazon warehouse, right? All of a sudden my options, which used to be McDonald's and Burger King, Are now McDonald's and Burger King, K ffc, and Taco Bell and DoorDash, Uber and Lyft and Amazon, right? That's a much bigger competitive picture for that work for, for those companies and for those workers, right? So that's kind of what's happening within the, the competitive side is you just have more options. Right. 20 years ago, or 15 years ago, or even 10, 12 years ago, there are many parts of the world where people didn't have the option of being an Uber driver. Now they do. They can decide whether to work at Taco Bell or drive for Uber, right? So that's kind of the competition side. The last thing I'd say here is on the supply side, look, there aren't, you know, 20% of the workforce didn't just decide not to come to work. That's a myth, right? That that is not what's happened. There's not like 20% of people are sitting at home, you know, eating cheese doodles or something, right? That's not what is actually happening. However, you have this increase in competition, okay? Coupled with small changes to the workforce. Right. You have some people who are caregivers who have decided, hey, it's more important and more valuable for me to take care of my family, whether that be a young child or a senior citizen, than it is to go work an hourly job for $14 an hour. Now, it's not a huge number of people. That's not like 20% of the population. Maybe it's only one half of 1%. Right. Then you've got another half a percent of people who have decided, I'm not gonna go back to work because I've got a preexisting condition and I don't feel comfortable wherever that is. Well, that's another half a percent. Now, when you take these small, small numbers of people out of the workforce while adding lots more competition, what you have is a demand supply imbalance, right? It's how you get to two job openings for every. or a person looking for a job. What's interesting to really think about here is not all companies are understaffed at the same level. Right? You know, it's not like every company is 50% understaffed. There are some people who are 100% staffed, 90, 80, 70, 60, 50, 40, 30, right? And where you are on that spectrum, Is really up to you. Like how much are you paying? What kind of candidate experience do you have? How quickly can you move? How great are your benefits? How much flexibility do you provide? And if you answer yes to some of those things, you might find yourself higher up in the staffing. And if you answer no to a lot of those things, you probably find yourself. pretty understaffed. So anyway, that, that's what's happening in this labor market that's really incredibly challenging. The good news is it's a solvable challenge. It's not, it's not an impossible thing. Do great things for the people who wanna work for you. Do great things for the people that already work for you, and you'll likely be on the positive side of that change. 

Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah. It, it, it seems that this particular segment though, has an issue with attrition. I think there's a study according to the labor bureau of labor statistics, the average turnover rate is around 47%. And that seems particularly acute in the, the particular segment that you are serving. 

Sean Behr

Yeah, it is attrition is a real, real big problem. I mean, what's interesting about it is the, the attrition. for better or worse, the attrition hasn't gotten better. It also hasn't gotten worse. It stayed the same, but if you kind of go back to our previous question, which is okay, it used to be that it was easy to hire people, but the attrition was high. You can kind of live with that. Yeah. Right. But if you make it hard to hire people, an attrition is high. That's really painful. Because at least I could maybe live with the fact that yes, I had high attrition, but I could easily replace people. No problem. I'm not thrilled about it, but I can live with it if you make it that it is really hard to hire people and attrition is high. Now I'm like, I got a double whammy of pain here.

Nasser Oudjidane

Right You know what's interesting is that what we're seeing in the media with. ChatGPT AI automation and all these progresses is that conventional wisdom has, has thought that lower skilled work could be the one to be most effective. And it seems that at least now and, you know, things are changing so fast that it's lawyers, accountants, copywriters that are ones that are gonna be disrupted, not necessarily. you know, put out of work. What, what's your take on this? Just considering the, the change in... 

Sean Behr

Yeah, it's, yeah, I have not thought about it, but I actually think, I think you might be right. I mean, the reality is, and look, you know, the, the reality is that these jobs in the front lines of our economy, you know, it's very, very difficult to replace them. I mean, how many of us have, and, and, and my previous company was in the self-driving cars and car sharing and ride sharing. , you know, we all know that the cars are eventually gonna drive themselves. It, it hasn't happened yet. In fact, I think we've learned how important the driver is for a lot of these trucks and, you know delivery vans and cars and, and all these kinds of things. You know, the computers have not yet quite replaced those. And same thing for the robots who are. Magically stock the shelves of your local grocery store. That hasn't happened either, right? But if you play around with, with some of these, you know, large like L learning models and language models and some of these AI technology, it can write a pretty good email. You know, it can summarize a zoom call pretty well. I don't know if any of those AI technologies can get, you know, more paper towels onto the shelves of a grocery store, at least not yet. But I also think the other thing that's interesting about this is, you know, it used to be that software engineers were the, you know, the most important, hardest to find, hardest to recruit for a role.now it's somebody in the supply chain is almost as important as, as a software engineer. 

Nasser Oudjidane

Right. All right. How closely from the way that you are leading you know, product vision and trying to solve your customer's problem within labor market labor workers this segment, the approach to recruiting has been traditionally sales orientated. There's this adage of recruiting your sales and now there's important trends being made with your employer brand and how you can get candidates to apply it. Do you, do you have a, an application of a mental model with regards to how recruiting fits with its cousins in sales or marketing? 

Sean Behr

Yeah. I mean, I would tell you. you know, it's a very, very close look. Sales and marketing are really, really important in competitive world. If you, if you don't have competition or if, if competition isn't a challenge, sales and marketing are not that important, right? If you have a product that is free and you're getting all of the sales you need, and people just come to your website and download your, your app or your product, Marketing and sales are not that important. Probably the best example of that might be like Instagram, right? Instagram needs sales and they didn't need marketing. They just had people download the app, share it with their friends, and all of a sudden they had millions and millions and millions and millions of users. For most of us, you know, getting a, getting somebody to come work for us. It isn't like Instagram. You know, you've got, they've got other options. They've got other apps, quote unquote apps that they could go and download and you need sales and marketing. Right. And I think comes back to this point, especially on the, the, the blue, the blue collar and gray collar and knowledge workers very hourly worker side. It's a real competitive marketplace. In a very competitive marketplace where there's lots of other options, sales and marketing is really, really important. You know, it's a mi, it's a really critical thing that you need to do and do really well. And that means having the right employer brand, having the right employer messages, right, taking care of your applicants who might want to come work for you. And I would say that's, that's true probably for both knowledge workers as well as hourly workers. , you know, knowing what your company stands for, knowing what your company is about, what kind of perks and benefits are available, you know, what kind of, what kind of work environment do you have? What do you value? What are your mission and your vision and your values. Those are all really important, whether you're hiring delivery drivers, truck drivers, marketing people, or you know, sales people. 

Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah. And how, how would you say that the, the recruiters. Within blue and gray colors. Time and overall focus has changed since Covid economic uncertainty. How has that landscape changed for them and, you know, how is Fountain helping and, and, and how do you how are you planning on helping them in the future? 

Sean Behr

Yeah. I think recruiting has gone under a. Kind of a, a crazy couple of years here, you know, going back the last three years, you could argue recruiters were the least important people in 2020. The most important people in 2021. Pretty important in 2022, and yet to be determined in 2023, but it's been. , it's been a pretty up and down rollercoaster, right, of how do I, you know, you went from, nobody was hiring anybody in the beginning of covid to, oh my gosh, this is a, you know, everything is going faster. We need to hire, double everything because we have so many things that we need to do, whether that was knowledge workers and software engineers, or whether that was Class A truck drivers and Laurie drivers in, in the, in the blue collar hourly world. So it, it's been a big, big change. I think the thing that we're always focused on with re with recruiters is how do we make their job more valuable? How do we make sure that the time they're spending. Is more valuable than just clicking buttons, right? The, the sending of the emails or the, you know, the, the moving the candidates and doing this, that, and that, and all these admin tasks, we wanna try to minimize that. So that they can focus on the more important work of recruiting, which is maybe finding those people or answering those questions from those workers who are really qualified, who could really help the business. So it's, for us, it's always about how do we make sure that we're honoring their time by building product features that get them to focus on the things that add the most value . 

Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah, and is, would you give any advice with regards to some of these changes that have happened? 

Sean Behr

Yeah, I mean, I think the, the thing that I would say that's really become very clear, simplicity. I mean, being willing to, to kind of challenge those kind of core assumptions about the way you've always done things and look for something simpler. Right. And so what we often talk to HR teams who, who just say, well, this is the way we've always done it, right? This is the way we've always done it. We know it's complicated, but this is the way we've always done. On it, I think the last couple of years, I, by the way, painful in some places, right? Especially now you have layoffs and you have, you know, big change and lots of economic uncertainty. It's a great opportunity though to reexamine some of those pre really set in stone assumptions that are, you know, no one ever challenges because they're so, right. In fact, like one of the things we always, I always try to tell the team about is I'm less worried about the thing that I don't know. I'm really worried about the thing that I am so sure is true. That just isn't true. Like what are those core assumptions that are, are, haven't been challenged? That can be, and one of those I think is, is bringing some simplicity to things. Even when you. , we've always done it this way and it's always been complex, but it works. How can we simplify? 

Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah. It's interesting because the first question I asked you after in introducing yourself was Fountain's mission, and you mentioned it starts with why. And now we're ending well coming to the end of our discussion and it, it kind of circles back to first principles thinking, asking why And I, I thought that was quite nice. Last piece before the closing questions is, yeah. Have you heard of or observed when hiring yourself not only working on this product and building this company of advice, when recruiting, when hiring, when building teams that you think is total bs. 

Sean Behr

Hmm. Yeah. In in general, I would say two things. You know, one looking for specific, being so rigid in your qualification standards, I think is total bs. I think it's a myth, especially in the knowledge worker side. Like saying I need somebody from this kind of school with this kind of a degree, with this kind of number of years of experience. And, and rather than pick on the degree one, which would be too easy, I'll pick on the easier one. Right? The one that's easier for me is this like, number of years of experience. First of all, obviously more experience, probably better. maybe The myth though, that like, oh, we need somebody who's done this job for five years. The reason why I think it's BS or a myth is that we all know people who have worked at a large company for five years and done a job, and we also know people who have done a similar job for two years at a different company. And the person who did the job for two years at a different company learned five times as much and progressed five times more, and learned really tough lessons and, and. Learned up the scale in a way that maybe when you had worked at a larger company for twice as long or two and a half times as long, you just didn't get that experience. And so, you know, something, when I, when I think about salespeople or marketing people, I, I think looking for a, like a fixed number of years of experience. I'm far more interested in the quality of your experience than I am in the quantity. Of your experience. So anyway, that would be my, my one piece of BS myth busting for today.

Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah. Thanks for that. Yes. It's, you've got a higher via competency based framework. Yeah. You've gotta define the skills that you want. And moving into the closing questions now, what's one piece of advice you wish you had when you started. 

Sean Behr‍

Hmm. . You know, I, I, the number one thing that always resonates for me is I don't care what job title you have. I don't care what department you work in. I don't care how much money you make, I don't care any of that inside your own organization, become known as the person who solves the biggest problems. If you, if you become known as the best problem solver, you will never have to work on a resume ever again in your life. Now, you, and, and what's interesting about that is the bigger the problem, the better. So like in your organization, if you're just starting out, like find out where there's a problem. That the senior leadership team of your organization wants to solve and ask to work on that problem because that's where the action is. That's like where you get the experience. And if you become good at solving those problems, obviously you'll probably start with some smaller ones. That's where the opportunity comes, and that's literally where someone comes to you and says, would you be willing to go move to this country? Because we have an op, we have a problem there now, and we need somebody to go take that on. And if you're just starting out, it's just an incredible way to advance your own career. 

Nasser Oudjidane

Phenomenal advice. And with that you can, you can assume that your career structure will not be linear. 

Sean Behr

Yeah. So will not be linear for sure . 

Nasser Oudjidane

Right is, is there anything that perhaps you've read, you are currently watching or listening to that you find inspirational worth sharing? 

Sean Behr

Yeah, you know, I There's a patrick o'shaughnessy does a podcast called Invests With the Best or something like that. And you know he, he comes with it from a financial perspective, but it's always a really interesting entrepreneur or CEO or leader in a company talking about real stories from the front lines of their business. I always learn something really, really interesting when I listen. .

Nasser Oudjidane

Thanks for sharing. I'm, I'll definitely check that out. Last one, what is one thought, valuable phrase? I'm sure you have many that you live by. 

Sean Behr

Yeah, there's very, very, very many. Love. The one that I think most people would know me from is make it happen like, There are just times in your life, in your day, in your week, in your quarter, where there's an opportunity to just make something happen, something that wasn't gonna happen anyway. Like there are things that are gonna happen, like whether or not you're there, you know, the clock is gonna tick. So there's nothing to do than that. But there are things that are not gonna happen. A deal isn't gonna close. A candidate isn't gonna join your company unless you make it happen. And maybe that means calling up that candidate and saying, having a real heart to heart with that candidate about why you want them to work for you. That wasn't gonna happen anyway. They were gonna go work somewhere else, and you did it. You made it happen. So make it happen. 

Nasser Oudjidane

Yep. And on that note that's a wrap. Sean. Thank you. This has been a pleasure. 

Sean Behr

Nasser, really great to talk.