Paul Wolfe

‍ I think, like I said before, leaders need to lead differently. setting clear goals and objectives and KPIs and milestones is always something that leaders should have done. I think they were able to get away with not always doing it to the extent they should have. And this is not a dig on leaders, it's just a fact. Was because they were seeing people come into an office every single day and that there was a, I, you know, I think there's this fallacy that like if they're at their desk, they're working. , they could be on Amazon, they could be on Tinder, they could be on a lot of different things, not necessarily doing their work. And so that's a bit of a fallacy I think, with people being. . I also think what's incumbent in a good leader is having clear conversations with their employees and being transparent about performance and how things are going. 

 Nasser Oudjidane

‍ Hello and welcome to our series of Scaling Stories, a discussion with people, leaders about their lessons building teams at some of the world's fastest growing companies. I'm excited to introduce our guest today, Paul Wolfe, a human first leadership advocate, and former HR exec at indeed and match.com. Paul, a huge welcome and thank you for joining. To get started, can you share a brief introduction about you and your back ground.

Paul Wolfe

Sure. I The last 20 plus years I've run HR at companies like Indeed match.com Con Nast or been a, an HR executive at those companies. Mostly in the tech space. It, the beginning of last year, I decided to leave full-time corporate America, if you will, and started my own business. I've written a book that's out in a little more than a month, March the eighth. Human Beings First Practices for Empathetic and Expressive Leadership comes out and I'm really focused now on this, you know, human first leadership, advocacy and approach, and helping leaders think differently about leading and how. And help companies think differently about leadership and how they treat their employees, and also helping HR leaders think differently just about HR in general. I think it's, you know, there's, there are a lot of things in HR that, need to be changed and need to evolve to keep up with, you know, more generations in the workforce at different labor market. You know, the pandemic I think forced a lot of that in a good way. And just helping people think, you know, think through things a little bit differently than they would normally have pre pandemic . 

Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah. I'm excited to get in this into this with you. Perhaps could we start with some definitions? What do you mean by human first leadership? What are some of this core tenants? 

Paul Wolfe

I think it's that we're all human beings first, and that, you know, pun intended, cuz that is the title of my book. But that's the one thing that makes us the same. And after that, everything's different and I think right or wrong. There are leadership courses and leadership training that, you know, all leaders, even, you know, people that want to be leaders have been through at some point. And I think at some point we were taught to be something other than human and not, show up as human. We were taught to have all the answers. Never let your team see you sweat. Like, know everything, you know, kind of direct everything and, all that. And that's not what a human being. Does or is, there are plenty of things in my personal life that get thrown at me. They're like, I have no idea what the heck to do. The same is true in my professional life as a leader, and I think it's just helping leaders get comfortable with that. The other thing I think that will do if their leaders start showing up as humans, more as humans, that it will create a foundation of psychological safety or at least some safety for their employees to start showing up as themselves. Because we all have, you know, we all, I think in general, employees want to do a good job. They want to succeed and be successful. Life throws different curve balls at us. Life throws high points and low points at us, and we need to deal with that while we're trying to be, you know, successful. And if somebody's having an off day or an off week, likely there's something else going on and you want that employee to be able to open up a bit about it and share with you. And, you know, you can, maybe you can point them in the right direction, whether it be an employee assistance program or some other benefit. Or maybe they just need somebody to listen to them. And you can be that person I think. by doing that, there are deeper connections and new connections that get made, which make that relationship of employee and leader better.

Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah, absolutely. And this seems to be something which is fundamental as a responsibility within hr. And something that perhaps is not famous for as, as you've mentioned before, that you'd like to kind of blow up some of the traditional practices that perhaps adversely affect companies, and perhaps we can get into them. What do you think are some of those practices? 

Paul Wolfe

‍ You know, it's the first thing I'll give you is just because it's top of mind. Cause I was having a conversation with somebody a little while ago about pay transparency and how, we did it at Indeed and what that project looked like and what I learned from it and what I would've done differently. You know, comp the compensation process and most. Organizations in most companies, whether it be a US based company or a global company outside the US are relatively similar. There's a lot of data, but there's a subjective piece to that. And one of the things that I think leaders need to do is they move towards pay transparency. And now they're kind of being forced to do that because they're more laws, especially in the US, around pay transparency, but help educate your employees about.The behind the scenes stuff is, so we were talking, I was talking with this leader about job matching. So for those in your audience that don't know, you know, you've got a job at your company that you pay X for and you want to go out and look for data that supports the range that you want to pay or your compensation philosophy. Some of those are pretty simple, like engineer. There are engineers at hundreds of thousands of companies, and so the data you'll get from a survey is very clear. There's an engineer, this is what the range is, and you make decisions about what you want your internal range to be. There are some roles at companies that are unique to that company or are unique to that industry. and that data is not prolific. And so you've gotta figure out other ways to get some of that data. And the advice I was giving this person was involve your employees. Like, explain the process to them so it's not this, you know, secret something that HR folks go behind a dark curtain in a dark room, or by themselves and make all these arbitrary decisions. So that's one simple example that's top of mind. The other one that I, I talk a lot more about is, , when there's a reason to dig into an issue that's going on between employees or something that an employee did at your company, one of most HR folks, we'll call that an investigation. I think at the onset, that word alone in the us it has a legal connotation to it. Puts people on the defensive. And then I think added to that, most people don't know what you mean when you say, we're gonna conduct an investigation. It needs to remain confidential. Explain it like pull the dark curtain away. It's not, you know, I always think about th this example about investigations is, Similar to like Wizard of Oz and at the end I don't, hopefully most people have seen Wizard of Oz. I don't wanna do, or I'll do spoiler alert. At the end of it, there's a curtain and there's this little guy controlling all this stuff that you think is this, master, you know this, wizard that's doing everything and it's, he's behind this dark curtain and it's like that shouldn't be, employees should really understand and of these things that are going on, I. Investigations is one process in HR that should be blown up. And yes, there's a legal piece to it and I understand that, but like even short of like, don't use the term investigation, like, let's dig into this a little bit more. Let me have some conversations. You know, I've gotta gather other people's perspectives and I think helping employees understand what an investigation is, or whatever you want to call it is, and what it's going to entail and how long it might take is really helpful for them because it at. I would think would sub, you know, kind of subside any of the angst around it. They're gonna have an understanding of how long, you know, they may think an investigation like, oh, they're gonna get back to me this afternoon, and it may take two weeks because you've gotta talk to a bunch of people. And like, I think setting that stage up front and really helping them understand it is better. And then I think there's lots of stuff to change just to make it a more human first process than it is today.

‍Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah, absolutely. And with, regards to pay transparency and return to work, as I'd like to, like intersect these themes. I mean, you've described yourself as a, return to office naysayer. And you've called BS on folks that say you must return to the office cause it's better for collaboration and problem solving and reinforcing culture, Why do you have this position?

Paul Wolfe

Yeah. I've been very vocal on a lot of social media platforms about this, so I'm gonna start like let's paint the picture. I don't, we were pre pandemic. We were all used to a paradigm of work that our parents were used to that our grandparents, that we go back generations. This is the way work was. You got up in the morning, you went to an office, you worked and you went home at night. Like that. That was it. The pandemic changed all of that, and it forced us to work from home because there was a pandemic going on, economic uncertainty in the us There was social unrest, there was a president, contentious presidential election, like all that stuff going on. And so that's not really work from home either because there was all this other stuff going on, the pandemic being the biggest that none of us had ever lived through before because none of us were a hundred years old, which is when the last one was. And. . You know, companies were forced to do things and we get that. But if you look at a lot of companies that were for that, like everybody else during the pandemic told people to work from home. They've been very successful. And now you're seeing leaders make decisions to bring people back to an office. And I will say some of this is probably the press and the media and not to not. pounce on them. But you know, I've got an article, it's gonna be so many words. I can only put so much in it and not getting into maybe some of the data behind these leaders making decisions. But anecdotally, you know, I know people that work at a lot of companies and a lot of those leaders have told them they're coming back and have used. Well, it's, you know, we want to preserve our culture. If your culture is the four walls of an office, you've got bigger problems than running a business. You need to solve the culture. Problem culture is not the four walls of an office or the foosball table, or the ping pong table, or the lunch or the fancy chairs. You give your employees a sit in culture. Your company's mission and the values and how you treat each other and how you treat your clients and what it means to work at that company. Four walls don't make culture, and that's the one I hear a lot when I, especially when I talk to leaders. I'm like, that's just bullshit. And hopefully I can use bullshit on this podcast. I've not, you can edit it out. You know, I've seen collaboration is another reason that gets booted around and, you know, I get it. I think. In a world where people make the choice of how they want to work. And so I'm not a remote only advocate either. I am an advocate for employees making the choice that's best for them. Because, you know, I've heard countless friends tell me that during the pandemic or when they've been, you know, even now as the pandemic has eased a bit and we have vaccines and boosters and understand it better and they've been allowed to work remotely. they've been able to coach their, you know, son's little league baseball team. They've been able to take their daughter to dance class and at a recital that might have been at five o'clock in the afternoon cause they weren't commuting. And now their leader has said you have to come back three days a week or two days a week, or whatever the case may be. And now they can't necessarily, their life is changing because of that. and I would argue for the worst because they're not spending time with their children or their family or their pets or whatever it may be. And so I'm all about giving employees flexibility and making the choice that works for them. And it may be going to an office five days a week because that's where they do their best work, but. . What I haven't seen is data that supports the collaboration, you know, argument or you know, we need to be more creative with products we're rolling out. I think leaders need to learn to lead differently. You know what I hear a lot about? It's really hard to onboard somebody that's remote. . Okay. Like I, understand that during the pandemic you did it, did those, em, like what did you do? And how are those employees performing? If they're performing as well? Or almost as well as employees that you onboarded before the pandemic. How do you just capture what you did and take that and use it for ongoing? I get it's always easier and to be in person than what we're used to, but I think leaders need to lean into different ways of leading and just be more. More purposeful about why they bring a team together in person more purposeful in a one-on-one that may be virtual. Like we're talking today, asking questions about how they're doing, family, pets, kids, whatever that may be, that they may, you know, that hallway or water cooler conversation they would've normally gotten in the office. But what, but the reason I'm so vocal about this is I've not seen a company say This is how we're going to measure whether this, forced return to an office is better. Than people choosing what's best for them. And the reason I'm such a big proponent about people choosing what's best for them is I don't think there's work in life anymore. It's just life and work is just a category within life. Just like my husband's a category or your wife, or your boyfriend or girlfriend and children or pets or family or hobbies. Are just a category of this big thing called life, and we all wanna live the best life possible, and that's why I think employees should be allowed where it makes sense. And I, respect that if you're a barista at Starbucks, your job is in your coffee, your store. Making coffee for your clients or if you're a, you know a, sales associate at h and m that your job is in the store. Like, I understand that, cause this is not a, everybody has to do this, but I think those companies that can accommodate this flexibility should really lean into that flexibility. 

Nasser Oudjidane

‍ Yeah, absolutely. I mean, couple of things there. The first is I, often hear. Loyalty and engagement is something that can only be achieved when you meet someone face to face, and I'm not sure whether there's merits to that, but it's, interesting how you said that we just don't have the data yet to actually go and make a, reasonable decision. So it seems like a lot of this is gonna have to play out and we'll kind of take it from there. Then the second item, which you, mentioned, which is measure. and how work and life has been blurred. And in terms of talking about the future of hr, how do you think we should measure productivity if this is going to be achieved in in more remote environments? How does one set objectives? And something that you've mentioned before is managing bodies of work, which I found very interesting. 

Paul Wolfe

‍ Yeah, I think it, you know, I think, like I said before, leaders need to lead differently. setting clear goals and objectives and KPIs and milestones. It's always something that leaders should have done. I think they were able to get away with not always doing it to the extent they should have. And this is not a dig on leaders, it's just a fact. Was because they were seeing people come into an office every single day and there was a, I. You know, I think there's this fallacy that like if they're at their desk, they're working hard. They could be on Amazon, they could be on Tinder, they could be on a lot of different things, not necessarily doing their work. And so that's, a bit of a fallacy I think, with people being. . I also think what's incumbent in a good leader is having clear conversations with their employees and being transparent about performance and how things are going. I think it's even more important when you're not seeing somebody in person. And I your comment about. Building trust and loyalty in, there's an in-person parts of that. I agree. And I'm not suggesting that people shouldn't get together in person, but I think you need to be very intentional about why you're bringing them together and what are they gonna get out of that. Because what I hear a lot of is like, oh, my manager's telling me I have to be in every Tuesday and Wednesday, but I end up on Zoom meetings and a conference room from my. Tuesdays and Wednesdays when I'm forced to be in the office because these other people aren't in the office. Like, that's not an, that's not an intentionality to me. That leader just wants to see butts in seats. I think that, you know, you also can't, when you saw people in an office, I think, again, there was this fallacy that they were working and if they came in at eight and they left at six, like, oh my God, they worked 10 hour like, and they ate lunch at their desk. They're not, let's be realistic about it. They weren't working that whole 10 and a half. Like hour, that whole 10 and half hour period of time, they were doing other things and they may have been responding to text. I'm not suggesting they were, you know, quiet, quitting or shirking their responsibilities. There's so many like new terms out there today, but they were doing what they needed to do and they were likely doing their work, but it's not about. Butts and seats or how long they were there for the day, it's about are they getting the body of what those, going back to those goals and objectives, are they achieving their goals and objectives, and are they achieving them in a reasonable amount of time? You know, if you say, I, you know, here's a goal for you for this month, and they achieve that goal in 15 days. That's amazing. And there may be other people that take the 30 days to do it, that's great too. But just because they're sitting in an office doesn't mean they're gonna get it done any faster. A lot of people are distracted by being in a, lot of companies have open, you know seating areas, not the old, school Mad Men kind of. Office mentality until you get distracted by that, somebody walks up to you, there are distractions at home. There's not as many distractions for a lot of people. And so I think managers need to be, get better at managing these goals and objectives, these bodies of work versus putting measurement or You know, kudos around how long somebody is in the office. Just cuz they're in the office doesn't mean they're always doing good work either. And so I think they just have to think a little bit differently about it and be more meaningful about the goals and objectives and or be more transparent and meaningful about having really clear performance conversations, which should have been happening all along. And you know, as an HR leader, I saw the bad side of a lot of things and that didn't always happen. And that leads to other issues, other employee issues. And so I think, you know, I think transparency is a. topic. That gets used a lot. Now I'm a big believer in it, but we should be more transparent about HR processes and practices. Leaders being more transparent with their people about how they're doing and what's going on and what they need to see more of or less of, I think is just important. And I think, you know, the pandemic and what work looks like, and I think you're also right. We are in a period of time where we don't have a ton of data in, and we're in, companies are entering into this new way of working in this new contract of work with our employees. I don't know that I, seriously doubt that's not set in stone because I don't think we know what the new paradigm of work is. Probably for another three to five years until we get some more data. And we, you know, companies and leaders are putting things out there like, this is what we're gonna do and that's going to evolve and change as the world around us changes too. And I think that flexibility is important to be able to kind of keep up with what's going on in the world around us. 

Nasser Oudjidane

‍ Yeah, absolutely. And I think you hit the nail on the head with the landscape is changing and some of these reactions are perhaps rooted in insecurity and not knowing what, to do about it. So we revert back to perhaps how things were rather than looking ahead and looking forward. What, would you perhaps say to our audience with regards to some of the most. Important aspects of this landscape changing. What do you think is, I mean, from you crowdsourcing the discussions that you've had with other fellow community members what, are you hearing a lot of that you think perhaps should be. part of the focus to navigate these changes? 

Paul Wolfe

Yeah. One, one of the things that comes up a fair amount with talking with kind of leaders, not necessarily HR leaders, is this concept of the hallway conversation, the drive by the water cooler conversation, whatever you want, whatever name you wanna put on it. It's true, like, you know, if I was in the office, if I dial back five years and I was in the office and I was gonna go grab lunch and somebody was sitting across from me and I was, you know, 1230, be like, Hey, you wanna go grab. , that doesn't happen as easily as it did there because they're not sitting in front of me. So I think you need to be more intentional. , the social interactions. And I think there are ways, you know, and I think there's also technology that we're going to see, you know, that's in an infancy now, that's gonna come and like take a, stronger hold in companies that embrace flexibility and kind of dis more dispersed workforces, but be more intentional about having the social conversations. I, you know, I was with new employees when we were work from home during the. usually every couple weeks I'd randomly get five or 10 names from a list that my team would give me and I would pop 30 minutes on a cal, on a, on an invite at the end of the day. Typically it my end of the day. But it also depended on when they were, and you know, you may have a cocktail, I may be eating dinner if it was later in the evening. I've done it at lunch and at breakfast and you can have a meal. And just. Shoot the breeze with those employees and find out what questions they have, but that was being more intentional because I wasn't on a plane flying to an office where I would normally see those people in a focus group, or we'd go out to lunch or we'd have an HR meeting or a, an employee meeting or an employee focus group. I think you just need to be more intentional about that. I'm not suggesting that Zoom or any technology platform that allows us to meet without being in the same room replaces the in-person. But again, I think you need to be more intentional about bringing people together and what the, what they're gonna walk away from that with. If it's just a, series of, you know, three days of meetings that I could have been at home on Zoom while I was petting my dog, or taking my daughter to dance class or helping my wife out while they, she worked on a project for. Is that really worth me getting on a plane or, going someplace that I'm not normally? You know, what is that intentionality? It's really about kind of that in-person building relationships, getting to know each other better. Certainly doing work and meetings. It's not all, fun and games, but I think you need to be. Better at that. The other thing that I, hear a lot of is onboarding. And look, I think onboarding in any company that I was ever at is never perfect. I think you need to continuously think about it and how to, you know, it's always interesting to, to You know, ask people in their second or third week or their first month to give really deep feedback about onboarding because they're new, they don't know everybody in all the systems and all the acronyms companies have so many acronyms. Like let's, let look at it from their perspective or what they would've liked. And I think really looking at that, I think you need to be more intentional about onboarding and mentoring. You know, you know, you can, you know when I worked for Conde Nast, which is a while ago now, kind of 10 or 12 years ago, it's a publishing company. I loved when I, my first day I was assigned a buddy in hr. And that person I was able to ask questions I thought that were stupid or that I didn't wanna ask my boss who happened to be the C H R O. And I could be like, Hey, is this person always like this? And yeah, you build that relationship, but that's really good. It's like, it's nice to have. Non-judgment from somebody who is a peer of yours or just somebody else in the team that you're now a part of? One of the things we took a, similar approach at Indeed when somebody was interviewing and if they were interested in being in one of our inclusion resource groups or employee resource groups as other companies called we assign them a buddy in that group and they can ask questions of what it's like to be somebody of color somebody in the lgbtq plus community at Indeed. And it was a non-judgmental kind. No one in the decision making process. So, you know, that concept is not new and you can easily do that virtually. You know, one thing that during the pandemic that some of the office managers at Indeed did, they would just do random, like, I think it was called coffee roulette or lunch roulette, and they would pair new people with other people that have worked there longer, and you just have this pop on your calendar and there'd be lunch. And so there are things out there, and people are much more creative than I am of ways that leaders can think of. And th these are the things that I hear. It's. The people that, that in-person connection, cuz I'm not as humans, we like the in-person connection. Even if you're an introvert like me, I still like going to, you know, I went to a small conference of a hundred CHROs a couple months ago and it was a good day because I met people I didn't know and you got to talk about stuff that was going on in real life. And so that, I think you just have to, you've gotta be meaningful about those, when you do that, when you ask people to disrupt, their schedule their, you know, process, if you will. And you've gotta be more intentional about building relationships in a more dispersed environment. 

Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah, absolutely. And it's, lovely to hear how 10 or 12 years ago at Conde Nas. This this experience for you still brings back like good memories. Like it's, 

Paul Wolfe

I still talk to my buddy who, neither of us work there anymore, but I still talk to my buddy at Conde. Like, that was my buddy in HR at Conde Nast.

‍Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah. Yeah. It's, almost, you know, frankly, if you get your shit together and make sure that if you are going to the office, then there's a clear reason why rather than going to the office and. Why am I here? I'm on Zoom and this clearly hasn't been managed properly and that's therefore a waste of time and ultimately, Remote work has enabled us to be so much more efficient with how we manage our time, rather than spending, you know, perhaps an hour on a train going somewhere and then coming back. I'd like to go back to, pay transparency. Something that you mentioned to me in the past is how such an important development this is. But there's a lot of stuff that's gonna get flushed out here with quote unquote atoning for sins. What did you mean by that that. 

Paul Wolfe

You look I'm a big believer in pay transparency and I have been for several years now, and I think in the US we're starting to see kind of more states and more cities enact laws which I think is a step in the right direction. And there's a lot of doubt and research around the fact that pay transparency, it doesn't solve, it's not the silver bullet, but it solves some of the inequities we have from a gender perspective and a, and an ethnicity perspective when it comes to pay and pay fairness. I think what scares a lot of, so if you think about and typically. In a company, take any size company, there is a pool of money that gets set aside for merit. Your annual increases, there's money that comes in the form of bonus that is allocated by, you know, some metrics that the company establishes. But these pools of money get given to a leader, and that leader is making decisions about how to use that money with the team that they. I think when there is a paid transparency leaders can sometimes use HR as a scapegoat. I've experienced this firsthand where you know, HR told me I could only give you 3%, when in reality you received a 3% pool. And it was up to you to decide who to give 1%, 5%, 10%, 3%, two, but you knew you had a finite set of dollars to share to your, employees based on their performance in most cases. And so I think a lot of leaders when they hear pay transparency get freaked out about it because if somebody knows, you know how much you make because you get a paycheck every, you know, week or two weeks or month or whatever it may be. You know what your annual salary is. And if you see, and your leader's been telling you all along, you're a rockstar. I, I could, I can't lose you. You're phenomenal. And. I'm gonna I, I'll be, I'll use a, the worst case scenario, Ben saying, well, HR only gave me 3%, so I can only give you a 3% raise. And you've been doing that for a while. and they see a pay range for their job. When you go to pay Transparency, and let's say the range is, you know, 65 to $105,000, a low end and a high end, and they're making $80,000 a year. So they're in that bottom kind of, I'm not, great at math off the top of my head, but let's say they're in the bottom quartile. , their question's gonna be, if I'm a rockstar, why am I, why? If I've been told I've been a rockstar and I truly am, why am I in a bottom quartile? When in essence what you've been doing is you've been telling them that and using that 3% pool and HR as a scapegoat for giving people more money around them and not them because are, and you've, maybe you've not been having the most transparent conversation. Maybe they're good, but they're not a rockstar and that's why they're beginning the average. And I think when you go to pay transparency a lot. F is forced to come out because somebody will see where they sit in this range that is ascribed to the job, the role that they have, and that's where a lot of people get scared. And I think you've got to, you know, it all goes back to transparency in the title of it. But it also goes, always goes back to transparency. Having really clear, honest conversations with your employees about how they're performing and why you're giving them the two and a half percent raise or the 8% raise, or the no raise, because, you know, maybe they're at the, high end of the range, but there's not a cap on it. And they did an okay. and you want to make sure you've got other peop, you know, you've got other people on the team who are doing amazing work and they're farther down in the range and you want to help get them, you know, further up in the range and being honest with them about that and what it looks like to be at the top end of the range and get a 5% raise and what your expectations are. But I think it all goes back to leaders being really good at setting clear goals and objectives and KPIs, and regularly talking about those in somebody's perform. Two or against those and having just honest conversations and look, that's scary, like it is. But I think at the end of the day, everybody I, would get a lot of times, you know, people would say, oh, I don't wanna have this, I don't wanna fire this person because they're a nice person. When you make a decision to terminate somebody or you make a decision about their compensation or an equity award, or a bonus allocation or what, or a promotion, you're not adjudicating the human being. You're adjudicating the employee's. Performance in their role and against those objectives you set. And so maybe it was easier for me as, an HR leader, I had to separate when I had to fire somebody, I had to kind of compartmentalize that because I had to do that. Sadly, it's part of the job. I always knew I was a human because I had to pit in my stomach before I had the conversation and I never liked them. But you got through it. And in my mind it was always like, I'm making a business decision. It's not a human decision. And I think some leaders get wrapped up. I hear, you know, you would hear a lot and you know, leaders in general hear this a lot. Well, they're a nice person, you know, it's just they're not doing this part really well. And if that part of the job they're not doing really well is part of the job and other people that are doing the job are doing it and doing it well. You've gotta hold this person accountable, but it's not the person, it's not the human being. You're holding the employee accountable for doing that part of their job. And I think that's where we've gotten away from this transparency, because we look at it, and I'm not suggesting you don't look at people as human beings, but there is a business side of this and there's a human side of it. And yes, I talk about, you know, human first leadership and we're human beings first, but there are, we all run, you know, unless you're a. Very well funded and financially secure company. You're running a business based on a p and l statement, revenue and profit. And you know, if you've got shareholders or you've got venture capital companies that are investing in you, you want a good return for them. That's what they're expecting. And so we run a business at the end of the day. And so both of those things, making a decision about an employee and their job and treating people like humans can all like live and breathe in the same space . 

Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah, absolutely. And considering the macro environment. The most profitable companies ever making those tough decisions right now it's, clear that those tough choices that need to be need to be taken. Here's, something regarding that pay transparency, and this is a bit off schedule. Do you have a philosophy on that range and whether the location should be part of it? So if you live in a high cost, Are you deserving of the highest end because you've decided to live there? And what if you are a top performing person, but have decided to live somewhere, which is low cost? How do you think the business should view that? 

Paul Wolfe

Yeah it's a great question. Interesting conversations go on about this all the time, and so, you know, . Easier for me to say now that I don't work for a company cuz I work for myself, but does the, let's just pick a I'll use engineer. Does the engineer who lives in New York's code or work provide you? Is it a better product if they live in New York or Indianapolis, Indiana? A lower cost. It isn't. The impact of their code should be the same. And so the argument there is they should be paid the same. I think there's, there are a bunch of caveats to all of that. If I work for a company that requires, to be in an office once or twice physically in a hub or a, local office, then I have to live within a reasonable distance of that. So I'm already in that metropolitan, you know, area I, there, there's a, the US government has a term for that based on miles, but like that radius of that metropolitan area. I live in New York and so I fall into that, the New York City metro area. If I'm, so in that case they can continue with that location based approach because they're requiring people to be in a location for companies that allow their employees to work anywhere, work outside of, you know, these hubs where they're not requiring them to be in the office. This is where this becomes challenging because I was talking to one company. who is struggling with this or not struggling with it but, dealing with it. And one of the things they did, so their hub location, if you still live there, there's a, you get a, you get paid 10% more than if you live in outside of that hub location. And what they're doing is taking the next six to 12 months and using that 10% differential to see how much of that 10% will it cost for me to fly those people to that location when we do an in-person. Meeting or an all, you know, an all employee meeting or whatever the case may be. Cuz we still talked about that human connection, human in person is still something that is is, needed. And at the end of that year I, kind of really like their approach. They're being transparent with their employees and laying this all out in, at the end of the year if they're. Are gonna, if that travel costs, that extra cost of getting those folks that don't live in a, in that metropolitan area to that area once in a while is 7%. They're gonna give them a 3% raise and so that their, cost to employ that employee is still the same as it is for the person that makes 10% more because of the 7%. And if they get a raise, if it costs more than 10%, I think they're going to eat the overage. And so you could argue that it actually costs that company more for the person living in Indian. Than it does for the one in New York. Cause they don't have to travel for these in-person meetings. And so I think that's an interesting approach. I think, you know, if money is not an issue, Paying people. If you think about in the us, cuz this gets very different when you get outside the US but if you think about the US paying people a national pay range for the job that they do that's great. Not most companies aren't in that financial, you know, space to be able to do that. And so I think you've gotta be mindful about how you. Equitable. So it's not gonna necessarily be equal, but how you, there's equitable treatment. It's about how do you make it equitable for people that aren't being paid the same, that may live outside of a, you know, metropolitan area. Maybe it's a bigger stipend for the people that aren't in the metropolitan area for their home office setup. Or if you're one of those companies that was providing lunches, maybe they get a little something more. And so I think companies have to think about how do we make it, everything may not be equal because financially we may not be able to, you know when, Put something in payroll, you put it in somebody's salary, it's in perpetuity until they leave the company I think you've just gotta be honest and transparent with your employees, a as you're thinking that through. I do think that similar to the paradigm of work, this paradigm of location-based compensation is gonna take a few years, if not longer, to figure out, and companies are gonna have to make a choice. How they handle it or how they think about it. And I think transparency there is gonna be incumbent. You know I, believe, and this is where I think people are in, in, general, good and want to do good. If a company is out there and they really just can't afford. To pay everybody the same at a higher rate. And they were honest with their employees about that, that they financially couldn't afford it and they were transparent about their p and l. And, you know, a lot of companies provide a lot of information to employees and laid that out for them. I don't think they would. have a mass exodus from their company. I think the employees would appreciate the honesty and transparency and, you know, maybe involve those employees in the process of, well, what is, you know, being equitable look like? Like what is it that you would want if I can't put it all in base salary? What, else would you like short of just, you know, cold, hard cash? So I think I, again, think like transparency is gonna be key to companies figuring this out and being honest with their employees about how they're thinking about it. Because I do think, I think people understand that everything may not be equal, but they want to feel they're treated equitably or similarly. It may not all be the same. 

Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Some true, people like adults and, they'll behave as such and 

Paul Wolfe

Exactly.

Nasser Oudjidane

‍ It's, almost at this it's almost interesting to watch how much change is actually happening and opportunities for HR leaders. You, you've mentioned in the past that those HR leaders, particularly working at startups, can have an opportunity to actually almost become almost taking an, academic review and, write a white paper and a number of experiments that they can, they could be running because they have such a huge opportunity right now. 

Paul Wolfe

No I, it is, I was literally just talking to somebody right before I jumped on with you about, you know, the smaller the company, the easier it is to impact cha and influence change. And maybe not even change, but influence. Before it needs to be changed. Influence how things happen, how a culture is, you know, e evolves or how a culture's established, how values are established and things like that. It's, you know it's, the example of, it's easier to. You know, turn a, motorboat than it is a cruise ship cruise ship. You know, you've gotta be mindful about what's around you, where are you going, how much radius, you know, turn and all that stuff. I'm not a, clearly, I'm not a a, sailor, but you, get the concept. And so I think it's I think it is easier to influence and, impact change and impact culture and just, you know, in a smaller organization than it is in a larger. Now that said, I, you know, in a larger organization, I think change is just as meaningful. It takes longer and I think. It is good to be clear with people about the fact that here's where we're headed here. Probably the milestones are the steps you're gonna see. And we may change course altogether because something outside of our you know, control changes that we didn't expect or that was just out of the blue. And I think that is, you know I, don't know. I think I'm of the mindset. From an HR perspective and just in life perspective, that nothing really is set in stone anymore. And I think the best things are there and they're out there and they're doing what they need to at the time and they're never completely done. And they're gonna continue to evolve and change based on what happens around them or what the needs of the organization or the employees are. 

Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's almost like a call to experiment and iterate whilst there are, you know, the smaller boats that can move quickly. And perhaps even, you know, shout about that progress. Large organizations don't have, you know, perhaps that mu that, that much room for error. But there is still an opportunity to actually, you know, pilot or, you know, run a focus group or something equivalent to go and see and actually see the data and then perhaps roll out. Larger swaths of, that organization. 

Paul Wolfe

Yeah. agree. And I also think leaning into employees and getting their feedback is, you know, it's tough sometimes and I think you've gotta set some guidelines and ground rules because, you know, , I learned early in my HR career that, you know, chances are no one n not everyone's ever gonna be happy with any of my decisions. But I think leaning into them and listening to them and getting their perspective is important. And I think in general as humans, if we feel that our voice was heard and we feel that we were a part of a process, even though the outcome or the decision or the final. You know, program isn't exactly how we would've wanted it. We're probably more willing to accept it and support it and have bought into it because we felt that our voice was heard and our opinion was heard throughout the process. I just, I, you know, I saw that in my time as a head of HR at a bunch of different companies, and you. And, I think it is, you know, setting the stage and setting some ground rules for those conversations, but really asking for feedback in a way. And I think it's all how you approach it and you know, do people feel that their feedback was heard and do they feel seen, they're gonna tell others and that are employees about, Hey, you should go talk to this person because like he actually, or she actually does care. And she won and may not be able to solve it like you want it solved, but you know, wants to listen and try, is trying to make things better.

Nasser Oudjidane

‍ What piece of advice do you hear often when hiring, developing building teams that you think is total bs? What myths do you think needs to be put in the trash? 

Paul Wolfe

‍ I think one thing that I think I'll hear it and you know, this concept of one size fits. Like, this is the type of leader I am, and they just need to get used to me like, no, like these are, let's say you have 10 people on a team. They're 10 different human beings with, they're hardwired differently. They have different upbringings. They come from different places. They. Maybe married or not married, you know, straight or gay. You know, it's like it's a microcosm of the world, these 10 people that you have. And you have to, you know, not everything has to be customized, but you have to get to understand those people a little bit to be able to lead them effectively. You know, if you've got somebody on your team, if you are a raw, raw, raw. Leader and you like to do big public, you know celebrations and rewarding people and acknowledging people. That's great. That's what you like to do and you feel good about it, but you've got somebody on your team who is a very quiet. You know, person who doesn't like the public recognition, who makes them feel uncomfortable and they get, you know, they, they start to get splotches on their skin and, you know, red bumps or whatever the case may be, they have a reaction to it, like you shouldn't reward them. like you do, like you like to be rewarded. I think that's the other thing that, you know, there, there's a, I learned in in writing my book, there's the golden rule, which is treat others like you want to be treated. And then there's the platinum rule, which is treat others like they want to be treated. And I think you have to learn something about them to determine how they want to be treated. And some leaders will be like, well, I don't have time to do that. And you know, my response to that is, , that's your job. Like I, I understand you have other things to do in projects and things. You're delivering for your boss, but your job, the job you signed up for when you become a manager or director, or a VP or whatever the title is, you are responsible for leading a group of people and a group of people that's diverse. They're not all the same, even though they may look the same to. , they're not all the same. They don't like things that delivered in the same way. They don't like to communicate in the same way. And I think that's the one fallacy that's out there is that, you know, I hear a, to me it's a brush off. It's like, well, that's just who I am. And, I treat everybody like that. And as long as I treat them all the same, I'm fine. Like, no you're not. Cuz they don't all wanna be treated the same way. 

Nasser Oudjidane

Right. Last one before the closing questions. What tech do you use or have you used? Feel free to shout out products that have and are continuing to deliver value.

Paul Wolfe

You product-wise, you know some, of the, needs in HR are just there, like H R I S systems and things like that. You know, there's the Workday camp, there's the non Workday camp. I've used both. You know, the bigger you get, the easier it is with a, an approach like Workday. I think that if I think outside of work I was not, or outside of doing my job in a company there's an app called Team Blind, which is an app that early on employees would go to and complain about their companies and their leaders and things like that. I think over time it has become, More self-policing and a good source of information and maybe getting corrected when you have a wrong view. I think leaders looking at that, it's just another the, thing I tell HR leaders today is, It's another set of data, it's another conduit that you have to hear what people think. You may be able to correct some incorrect information or have some deeper conversations about something that somebody says is going on that you may not have heard of internally. And that's a good thing. I think that, you know, you've got. . I think one of the things I hear a lot of questions today is like, what's new that's gonna help us connect better, even though we may be dispersed and you've got the, tried and true like Slack and Zoom or any, you know, kind of meeting meeting platform. My hope is that there are some really smart people out there thinking about ways to make this connecting easier and less. Forced or less cumbersome. And so I, I tend to watch that space and see what's coming. Nothing floats to the top of my mind right now, but you know, I think there's a lot of great stuff coming from a tech perspective that will help leaders be better at leading an HR organizations in kind of bringing people together, for lack of a better way of saying it.

Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah, absolutely. And moving to closing questions what's one piece of advice do you wish that you had when you started your career? 

Paul Wolfe

Ah, that's a good one. And I've gotta think back longer than from a career perspective that I really want to, cause I have to acknowledge my own age these days.I think that I typically I would answer this question with like, you know, HR leaders, you know, get rid of the fallacy that everybody's gonna like you all the time. And I've kind of moved off of that. I think it is. I wish somebody had told me just to be a human being as when I first became a leader, and not to, you know, not that it was not to listen to all the leadership seminars and conferences and classes I went to, but, you know, show up as a human. And I think that people are going to respect that and I've learned that people respect that. And I think you build deeper connections and deeper relationships by acknowledging that you're a human being and don't know everyth. 

Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah. Could easily fall into reading the latest harvest Harvard business review. This is how to be a manager. So if you implement this template, then that's all you've gotta worry about. So it's very interesting how you put it. Is, there anything that you are reading, listening to, or watching that perhaps your willing to share and our audience would find valuable? 

Paul Wolfe

‍ Yeah, so a book I read recently, and I think he has a new book out, Abram X Kendi. The book that I read probably a year or so was how to Be an Anti-Racist. And I'm pretty certain he's got a new book out. It's just a a, different perspective. It, opened my eyes to a lot of things. You know, being a, white man in America, in the world, I think there's a lot that out there that people can read that gives them different perspective on them. The thing I tell people is, , you know instead of judging quickly be curious, ask questions to seek, to understand why somebody has a different opinion than you. Or, you know necessarily to understand, but if, they look different than you, or sound different than you ask questions just to understand them better. I, don't think that everybody is gonna, you know, get to a spot where they all love each other and everybody gets along. Certainly that's utopia and we would all love that, but I think. You know, just stepping back and asking questions to seek to understand is really important. It has been, I think it's become more important over the last couple years and anything I can, any podcast I can listen to or any book I can read that gets me. out of my comfort zone, I think is a good thing too. I think this is the challenge with leadership today is we all have to be uncomfortable in learning, you know, how we're going to lead in this new paradigm. Yeah. 

Nasser Oudjidane

We'll put that in the show notes as well. Last one. What is one four valuable phrase if, any, that you live by?

Paul Wolfe

Be curious, not judgemental. It's attributed a lot to Walt Littman, but he didn't say it. And so I don't know who it's attributed to who originally said it, but it of goes with like, don't just judge, ask some questions. Like it's better to be curious than to be somebody that's judgy. 

Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah. Paul, this has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for your time. 

Paul Wolfe

‍Thank you. I appreciate it.