Joahanna Thomas

If I have a magic wand, I wish everyone makes improving diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging part of their jobs that would make the strategy most effective. But I don't have a magic wand. So how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. To be clear, we don't actually eat elephants. It's an analogy. So we should start with having leaders support. and give ample resources to DEI work. If you're not that high yet in the org chart, there is strength in numbers. So gather those allies and bring those suggestions to your leadership.

Nasser Oudjidane

Welcome to our series of Scaling Stories, a discussion with people and talent leaders about their lessons building teams at some of the world's fastest growing companies. I'm excited to introduce our guest today, Joahanna Thomas, the Director of Diversity, equity and Inclusion at Epidemics Sound. Joahanna, welcome and thank you for joining me. To get started, could you share a brief introduction about you and your background? 

Joahanna Thomas

Thanks for having me. I'm Johanna Garcia Thomas, and I am in the intersection of a Filipino living in America, working for a Swedish company in global diversity, equity, and inclusion. I have 20 years in global hr. I've worked in the Philippines, Singapore, and then in the US. I'm a certified diversity professional by the Society of diversity 

Nasser Oudjidane

awesome. What a mix. You've, you've mentioned to me in the past that diversity and inclusion depends on the maturity level of the company. Something that I liked and what you've referenced are that companies can be and then the development of their programs can be considered close, the aligned to encyclopedias. Where do you start if the first volume hasn't been released? , 

Joahanna Thomas

there are, according to Harvard Business Review, there are five stages in terms of d e I progress in a company. The first one is aware, the second is compliant, the third is tactical. Fourth is integrated, and fifth is sustainable. So the very first. Thing that you would like to do in a company is be in a, in an aware stage where DEI is new to your organization and you're just becoming aware of its importance. So this is where you have a lot of workshops, speakers coming in, people reading about DEI, people sharing about DEI, people sharing about their own experiences and lived experiences. And the analogy of the encyclopedia is because it has a lot of volumes. Your company could be in a stage where they haven't even purchased the encyclopedia. Some folks ha are in book two, chapter 15. Some are nearing the end of the. Fifth book. So in terms of if your company has not started at all anywhere, is to create this awareness, talking about it, normalizing it is the very first stage.

Nasser Oudjidane

Got it. And perhaps just to double click on, on the first stage why is intersectionality so vital to. The effectiveness you know the no, the know, the know thyself aspect.

Joahanna Thomas

Yeah. So let me break that down. Intersectionality is very good to practice inclusion successfully because it means that you are aware of your own identities, your blind spots, your power, your privileges, your. It is seen as performative and ignorant, and you'll easily be burnt out if you just classify people as being a brown, Asian woman. There will be a lot of resistance because it's, it feels that we're vilifying white men because they're the reason of the oppression through the years. So there'd be a lot of resistance if If people don't understand themselves, they understand their own identities. even marginalized people will go through the lengths to protect the status quo. So intersectionality is the opposite of stereotyping. It requires that we spend time understanding the whole person. For example, I'm not only an Asian woman with all the stereotypes that come with it. I have a graduate degree. I'm Christian, I speak English. I grew up with two parents. I'm able bodi. And these are some of my power, my privileges, and I can use them to further myself and others. Understanding my limitations are also very good because I don't have the lived experience of someone with a disability, nor I'm not queer nor black, therefore, I'm not able to speak for them. I can do, learn about those lived experiences and be an ally. A white man has a lot of privilege and. He might also be be, that he grew up poor, he has mental illness, he has a parent disability, he has his own privileges and disadvantages. So when we start seeing the person as a whole, this makes people be seen and thus we can work together towards improving d e I for everyone.

Nasser Oudjidane

Got it. That was really succinctly put. How does one approach people that are not aware, of their own privileges. How do you have that conversation? 

Joahanna Thomas

Storytelling is quite powerful and it's even more powerful than just giving people data. So when people start hearing stories of other people that they know of, They tend, or folks that are, that have privilege tend to understand what other people are going through, especially if there's a face to that name. There is statistics that 91% of white Americans have only white friends, and the first time they encounter people of color is in the workplace. And these homogeneous social networks lead to bias and exclusionary behavior. Behavior. And the more privilege you have, the less empathy you have for people who are underprivileged. So storytelling and sharing of these stories increase empathy, especially for those in the privilege. The privilege folks. And if we throw them statistics, if we throw them data, , their defenses will just go up and say that I am not racist, I'm a good person. Of course they are. So it's taking the time to let them understand. That this is not about them per se. It's about the system that has perpetuated the privileges of white men. 

Nasser Oudjidane

Got it. And when you look back at your career and you think about some of the lessons learned when approaching this, and obviously this is applicable to the maturity model that you mentioned. What are the most important ingredients to ensure that a diversity, inclusion and belonging program and strategy can be effective?

Joahanna Thomas

If I have a magic wand, I wish everyone makes improving diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging part of their jobs that would make the strategy most effective. But I don't have a ma magic wand. So how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. To be clear, we don't actually eat elephants. It's an analogy. So we should start with having leaders support. and give ample resources to DEI work. If you're not that high yet in the org chart, there is strength in numbers. So gather those allies and bring those suggestions to your leadership.

Nasser Oudjidane

Got it. And what were some of the lessons that you've learned from building these programs and functions? Perhaps what was, what's some, what's some of that stick out at you? 

Joahanna Thomas

People will go through lengths to protect the status quo. So even the marginalized will per perpetuate the oppression of their own oppression because that's what they've always known, and they'd rather stick to what they know or what they're used to rather than changing. So always share the why when you do anything towards diversity, equity, inclusion. The next one is local implementation of a global D strategy. Culture is very powerful. So people are quite used to on how they implement things, they learn things, they who they hear it from. So it is very important that with a global d e I strategy is you should have a local strategy to implement so that it is effective to that culture. We should look at changing systems and processes and not people. People will change when the, the systems or processes are supporting the behavior that we want. And create awareness through storytelling. It's powerful than data. 

Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah, I love that. In, we've touched upon this earlier which was the importance of senior level buy-in in order for such programs and diversity inclusion init initiatives to. how do you, from like looking back on your experience have not only made the leadership aware and got them on board, but also held them accountable for supporting, engaging these initiatives? 

Joahanna Thomas

So I say, said, and I'll say it, continuously storytelling. So the leaders knowing what the stories of their people are. It could be different from them because right now we have a reality where our leaders are mostly white men are not able to relate to people who are marginalized. So it's storytelling and letting them know of the realities. That's very helpful. There's also a lot of articles and studies that tell you how to make it about the bottom line. If they can only understand numbers and profitability, diversity is great for the bottom line. Say great innovations. Inclusion is great for the bottom line. How retention, the amount of money we save in retaining people. So find out that untapped market of your industry and that you're losing on it if you don't make diversity as part of your business strategy. The other one is everyone in the company, especially the the leader, should make personal commitment to making change. So the d e I work is very personal. Let me tell you an anecdote. One leader that I spoke to while working on D E I. He was one of those folks who at the very beginning was like, I don't understand. There is this company whose market is only for men. They, they're very profitable because their market is only men. Why do I have to spend time working on d e I? So we did a lot of awareness initiatives, storytelling initiatives, and the next time I spoke to the leaders, they had a page of art and I. Why, and he shared that I have a daughter and realizing how toxic companies or tech companies are for women, I wanna make a company that would make my daughter thrive. So that make personalizing this for every leader has made the difference because now they made a personal commitment to making change .

Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah. We're, we're gonna get into certain industries and who are loudest very shortly, but I'd love to perhaps just continue this line of thought with, once you have leaders there and on board and there is a way of to via storytelling to to hold them accountable. How do you measure the results of the DE and I initiative? what do you think are the important metrics to track? 

Joahanna Thomas

It is a misnomer that D E I B cannot be measured because it's new and a lot of it Sure, a lot of it is intangible, like inclusion can be intangible for some people, but there are really tangible ways that you can measure. That d i is effective number one. It's amount of innovations or inventions you've had in the past years. Revenue per employee brand awareness brand, your brand awareness, attrition and recruitment savings, legal fee savings. We've heard of companies paying millions of dollars because of harassment and pay inequality in the usa, especially in California. and then higher engagement leads to lesser sick days. So these are just some of examples and you can have your own ways of measurement depending on what you can do. It doesn't have to be as very specific at this. You have to be able to start somewhere that you see an improvement over time. 

Nasser Oudjidane‍

And, and what have you seen with the major inhibitors? The main challenges that prevent DE and I effectiveness. 

Joahanna Thomas

‍ Yeah, unconscious bias and bias is real. We all are biased. And for folks who say that they're not biased, then they are not self-aware. So self-awareness, and I alluded to that or mentioned that in the beginning, that knowing that self is very important in this work. The company culture. So the leaders who say and perpetuate toxic bro culture, behavior there is also absolutely the polarization in politics where if you work on dei, you're woke and you're a lafty and if you don't, then you're, you're conservative, which is very untrue. Others are not prioritizing wellbeing of those doing the work. This work has burn burnt out a lot of people. That's because there's, again, going back to not knowing yourself, so not knowing your boundaries, not knowing your limitations, your power and your privileges. The other one is reverse discrimination. People who are new to this come in and say that we should only hire women or we should only hire people of color without a STR strategy to balance. Cuz that's what we wanna get to balance. And not that we only hire women or people of color. I've mentioned polarization and the person is biased, but the action may not be racist, not the person, unless the person doesn't want to change. And that's very important as one of the main challenges. The other piece that's very close to my heart is not working on equity. So we're very familiar with equality where we pay people. Pay for, for same work, but we can't give everyone 5% race because a 5% for someone earning a hundred thousand dollars is different from a 5% of someone earning $50,000 if they're doing the same work. We need to be able to give more money to the, to the person who's earning 50,000 so that they can be equal. Until we work on equity, we cannot achieve equality. 

Nasser Oudjidane

Got it. and what would you say is some of the major achievements when you look back on your career? Perhaps without naming names, are there specific instances which you were part of that you look back fondly? 

Joahanna Thomas

Yeah. Starting an organic grassroot, d e i by myself, and making it into a global d e i is one of those achievements that I really I'm fond of. There's been a few awards over the years, but the thing that I'm really happy about that. gives, gives me fulfillment, is paving the way enabling and empowering others, like in my lived experience, I have intern, I had internalized racism, being brown and Asian. I used to think that I was meant to not meant to be poor and not reach what other white people. Are reaching and easily for them. So having go, doing the work of self-awareness and working mentally, emotionally about all these hindrances have been one of the things that I'm most proud of and a balance of right now taking care of myself and others in this d e I work. 

‍Nasser Oudjidane

You mentioned grassroots. Something that came to mind was employee resource groups and they can be quite an important ingredient to contribute towards this. How can our listeners for those that are, you know, wi within people when talent functions begin to set something like this up, if it doesn't already exist within their organisation?

Joahanna Thomas

Yeah. ERGs, employee resource groups, or BRGs business resource groups. They're one of the very important ingredients in a d EI strategy. It's utilizing your own people so you don't make performative actions and you. Follow cookie cutter initiatives from other companies. So if you're an employee, like if you're in, in hr, for example, you can start a Slack channel with like-minded folks. You meet up every so often. You create that safe space. You talk about what can be improved, and then you go to someone in power that having you as a resource for the company is a win for the company. If you are a leader in the company, so if you are a director, you are a ceo, or you're a sit and c executive, you create a structure for people to self-organize, and then you create a structure where ideally you pay your ERG leaders and give them the agency to do this work because you will absolutely reap the benefits.

Nasser Oudjidane

And for those that are based in Europe, there are some limitations to setting up ERGs because of gdpr. What are some of the solutions to this? 

Joahanna Thomas

‍ Yeah, GDPR is a privacy law where, for example, in the US we don't, we can ask people what their ethnicity, their, if they have disability, if they're a veteran, et cetera. So in, in the eu, that's not really possible. So how can you create ERGs that are identity based? If, if that's not even allow. So if you have an environment where employees feel safe and are encouraged to self-organize and find that belonging within these certain group identities you can have, you can have people just starting ERGs organically because you have, you've encouraged that safe space that people can do that and you will support it. So how that would look like, Having something in your internet that says that we encourage people to self-organize, choose a leader and be, be an erg and here are the things that are your benefits and here are the things that we can do to support you. 

Nasser Oudjidane

Got it. And you know, to go back onto what we touched upon earlier regarding kind of tech bro culture What, in your opinion, are the perhaps promising areas of the economy regarding the achievements that have been made in de and I and perhaps some are ahead of others. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on, you know, what your opinion is of tech versus others, and do you think it's behind? 

Joahanna Thomas

We have a lot. To work on. And there's so much that we can improve on. However, there's a lot of intention in D E I, which is really good and in tech we have to work on, we have to see the impact. And one of the companies that I like that HA already has impact is for example, Microsoft when they made the Xbox accessibility player. So they, this allowed. Folks with this ability to play video games where before the controllers there, there's just no way for some people. So in terms of industries, there is this company called Edge, or this is the, there is the certification called Edge Certification. Or you can be certified if you are a company that has surpassed their, the DEI categories that they mentioned. So L'Oreal is one of those in mar manufacturing companies. Pharma, pharma companies. In terms of their di in the company, they, they have been. Established for a long time. That's why they were able to really have the time to figure out the DI for their company. But the impact, what I wanna say is the impact to, in terms of their product, because it's one thing that you have diversity, equity, inclusion in your own company. It's another thing where you are a leader in D E I where you have tangible product. that have made other people's lives better, especially the marginalized. 

‍Nasser Oudjidane

What piece of advice do you think perhaps do you hear frequently when building and executing in a, in a diversity and inclusion belonging strategy that you think is total b.

Joahanna Thomas

yeah. Taking no for an answer. It's just not in this work, you can never take no for an answer, , and that's not trash. That's, that's really in this work. You cannot take no for an answer. Again, you're working with behaviors that have been in people system. Like the culture. The system has been here for hundreds and hundreds of years, so absolutely you will, you will. If you get resistance, that's actually a good thing in this work. So you can't take no for an answer. There is also leaders, for example, there's a fear of making a mistake and that makes them paralyzed to do anything about d e I. So adapting a growth mindset is very important in this work, and growth requires discomfort. So if you're not uncomfortable, you're not grow. . The other thing is I cannot change. I've I've always been this way. This is what I'm used to. That's also bs. And again, it goes back to the growth mindset where we have to be uncomfortable and we will grow. It'll get better for us, for us all, and not only for certain people.

Nasser Oudjidane 

And Is there any products or are there any products that you've used that makes your job easier, better? Feel free to shut out products that have been delivering value.

Joahanna Thomas

The robust integrated HR system is very important and integrated is means that it's integrated to payroll, it's integrated to an applicant Tracking system has been very helpful. I'm not able to name names right now because you can track data. In that HR information systems system in EU where you can't, cannot track that third party d mapping survey is very important because that's the only way that you can get data if it's anonymous and voluntary and the the company who holds the data is not where you work. the two other ones are a mentoring tool. So mentoring is is a very good initiative in the company for diversity, for growth, for inclusion, and a mentoring tool that supports that initiative is wonderful. Lastly, an engagement survey tool. It is very helpful that you are taking the pulse of where, what your employees are thinking, and then you're able to. Act on it and not wait for once a year survey that you might be surprised and you can become reactive if you don't plan for any engagements that are specific to your employees. 

Nasser Oudjidane

Moving on to closing questions. What's one piece of advice that you wish you had when you started your career building diversity, equity and inclusion programs?

Joahanna Thomas

I that I will make a lot of mistakes and that I should have grace for me and others. That's one thing that I wish, because there were a lot of nights and days that I would punish myself almost for getting it wrong when honestly, in this work, there's a lot of mistakes and that's part of the job to get you to. And to learn to you learn all the time. 

Nasser Oudjidane

Speaking of that I've, I've been so impressed with like your wealth of knowledge what are you listening to, reading or watching that perhaps our audience can find inspirational or, or valuable 

Joahanna Thomas

‍ for a podcast? I love Hidden Brain for a book, you can start reading Blind Spot. I also journal with the Daily Stoic book, and I meditate every day. 

Nasser Oudjidane

‍ Okay. Well, we're gonna put those resources in the show notes. Last one. What is one thoughts, value, or phrase, if any, that you live by? 

Joahanna Thomas

‍ Do the best you can until you know better than when you know better. Do better. That's by Maya Angelou.

Nasser Oudjidane

kay. Really like that one. Joanna, thank you so much. This has been awesome. 

Joahanna Thomas

You're very welcome. Thanks for having me.