Jason Holness

One challenge or one major challenge that I tend to find is that, um, a lot of recruitment managers, um, they don't give feedback. You know, um, sometimes they would have an interview and they'll come and say, oh, it's a no , and then I'm like, okay. Um, it's a no. Why ? Because, you know, I'm very big on. Candidate experience and you know, if you know a candidate has spent, you know, 30 minutes or an hour out of their day to interview with you, going back to them and saying, oh, it's a no, it's just not sufficient, it's not enough. You know, so I'm very big on feedback and you know, I've. Spent a lot of time coaching and to, you know, really encouraging, um, hiring managers to be as qualitative as possible with their feedback and to, you know, be clear to me so I can communicate.

Nasser Oudjidane

Hello and welcome to our series of Scaling Stories, a discussion with people and talent leaders about their lessons building teams at some of the world's fastest growing companies. I'm thrilled to introduce our guest today, Jason Holness, a senior Talent Acquisition and people success manager at Reveal. Jason, a huge welcome and thank you for joining. To get started, can you share a little bit about you and your background? 

Jason Holness

Yes. Um, so first and foremost, thank you for having me. Um, so as, uh, Nasser shared, uh, my name is Jason Holness. Um, currently I'm working in HR, um, you know, more specifically as a senior talent acquisition and people success manager at Reveal. Um, initially, um, my journey, my career started out. Work in, in education, um, as a, a school teacher. Um, but also I've had my hands in many different pots, um, including, um, you know, event organization and working with. Cultural curation, um, particularly in the museum space. I got my start in HR, um, bit over three years ago. Uh, when I decided to pack out and, um, make the bold move to move to France. Um, I kind of, uh, Was in a bit of a stagnant state, you know, sort of say. Um, and I wanted a change. Um, and I decided that, you know, France was, you know, the place to move to a particularly Paris. Um, and I moved, the idea came to me in two weeks and I decided to move. And, uh, I didn't have a job. Um, there was no prospects or no opportunities waiting for me here, but I knew that I, I'd been teaching and. I could find a job, um, teaching English. Uh, so I decided to, to do that. I moved here. I got a job like within five days. It was before the school, school year began. Um, I guess some would call it luck, you know, I would, you know, say it's just time in meeting, you know, the right moments or the right opportunity. Um, and how HR came to me, uh, how I stumbled, um, upon HR was that I had started working with a company and, you know, two, two weeks after I started the HR personnel, um, that recruited me, um, had found another opportunity and, um, the CEO saw my resume and saw that I had, you know, done so many different, you know, um, things, um, in the past and asked. If I would be interested. And I was like, okay. Um, never thought of that before. Um, why not? And I absolutely loved it. I loved it so much that I decided to, you know, pursue, um, you know, a degree in, um, HR management and, um, to really take, um, this path more seriously. Um, since then I've, you know, moved from working within, uh, recruitment agency, really managing the global HR to, you know, working in ed tech. Um, you know. and a very popular, or, you know, someone to say famous French company called Open Classrooms. Um, you know, seeing that company grow, um, you know, um, from, you know, 100 to, you know, 300 team members and eventually, um, evolve into my current role, um, and reveal. Um, you know, I was hired as the first, um, HR personnel. I'm here at Revealer, the first person to start, um, last January, and it's been an amazing ride to see how the company has grown and evolved from just 20 employees when I started, um, to, you know, almost 70 now today. So, yeah, this is, that's just a little bit about me and, uh, my background and, you know, my journey up until now.

Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah. Thank you for sharing. And, and what a spontaneous and unique journey usually folks say that, uh, people fall into HR from many different backgrounds and, and, and your experiences is, is one example of that. Can we speak a little bit about your approach to developing recruiting strategies from scratch? Yeah. It seems that you've, you've developed quite a unique experience here. How have you built these strategies to, to meet hiring goals and increase quality of candidates? 

Jason Holness

Yeah, I think, um, you know, when I think about recruitment processes, I think about the processes that I would've liked for myself, um, or I would like for myself. So, you know, each process that, you know, I've implemented on each thing, um, but I've implemented in terms of the recruitment process, I've implemented it because I've. Uh, I know that, you know, it's something that will, you know, qualitatively add to the experience of the candidate, but also, you know, help, you know, whomever is the hiring managers or whomever is, you know, conducting the interviews to really be qualitative in their analysis of, um, the candidate experience. Um, both the hard and the soft skills. And, you know, globally in terms of, um, especially just to give you a more concrete example, um, starting with, you know, Reveal, there wasn't a recruitment process in place. Um, and that was the first top priority on, you know, my agenda or my list of things to do. And I felt it pertinent to, um, not only to have a standard, you know, five. Four to five processes. Um, you know, before I started an HR interview wasn't, you know, a thing of having, because they were working heavily with recruitment agencies. Um, you know, the manager's interview, um, is, you know, a very important, um, step or stage, but also depending on the post, you know, business case is quite essential as. Um, and you know, lastly, you know, a culture fit, which is indispensable. I think a lot of, um, in my experience, a lot of companies, um, recruiting, they skip that part because they tend to feel like that's not important. But I feel like, you know, for team members, To meet with the potential newcomer that's joining is very important. And the insights that they can add, you know, and give, um, really helps to really maintaining, um, also, you know, add in to the culture, um, and of the team and, um, and gives the potential team member as well to ask questions to people who are working in the company outside of, you know, the regular conversation that they would have with myself or with a hiring manager in the process.

Nasser Oudjidane

Absolutely. I, I find that in fascinating. I'd love to ask you a little bit more about that. Uh, the culture fit or culture ad aspect is that baked in during an interview day, such as an onsite where they're meeting HR, they're meeting the hiring managers, and then they're also meeting separately the team to do, uh, at a different type of assessment and analysis.

Jason Holness

No. So this happens, um, typically, um, you know, this happens over the course of two weeks. Ideally, um, you know, now, We love, you know, we love when candidates are available to come in person, but, you know, with, you know, um, recruitment, um, you know, everybody going online and now, you know, a lot of opportunities are remote, you know, so we tend to meet candidates, you know, who are based, um, in London, Milan, or the US or Canada. So it's very much, it's much more difficult to have like, in-person, you know, full day meetings like that. So typically, um, you know, It's all virtual and it will happen one after the other. Um, I, you know, I'm very, today, internally we use an ATS, um, which, you know, with that ATS you know, it's quite structured and we able to kind of, um, give visibility to everybody who is in, um, the recruitment process or who are participating in the recruitment process. So we can see, you know, once an interview, a manager's interview is done, they can leave their Comments, leave their rating. and you know, then we can know, okay, we are moving this candidate to the next step when we built the following interview. And then at the end of the process, we're globally able to see, um, the ratings from the HR interview, the manager's interview. We can also see the ratings from those team members who participate in the culture bit. And that's how we're able to kind of have like a non unbiased, you know, kind of, um, clear view of, you know, which candidate to choose, um, at the end . 

Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah, absolutely. And how do you select the team members for the culture fit? Yes. What's, uh, what's the process there? 

Jason Holness

So, team members typically, um, it's one team member from the team that the candidate will join, but also another team member from any other team within the company. And, you know, how it happens is that, you know, we simply approach a team members to see who would be interested in participating, you know, uh, or sometimes the, the hiring manager may have an idea of. Someone, you know, who would be, you know, quite, um, crucial to, to, um, to participate in this, um, stage of the interview process and then another team member from another team. And it's just really by choosing randomly or asking, you know, would you like to participate? And this, you know, makes recruitment a, a team or company effort. You know, I often say that everybody, you know, has a role in. Choosing, you know, who enters into the company and, you know, we stress and, you know, do in a lot of, um, formation and training on how to do culture fit and um, you know, what does it mean, you know, and creating interview kits as well, you know, to support them. Cuz a lot of the, a lot of team, they have never done an interview before, so it's quite, uh, a new terrain. And they also, they often have a lot of questions to ask, uh, where this is concerned. 

Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah, I find it fascinating. So you've built an interview kit to help your team members assess other potential recruits coming in based on, uh, some sort of objective assessment so that they can follow a line of questioning, that can help probe and, uh, develop a, a fuller sense of that candidate. What type of questions, uh, do you help them with what type of questions do you ask? 

Jason Holness

Yeah, so these questions are often, you know, based upon the company's values. Um, so, you know, we ask, you know, questions to test their adaptability, you know, to see, you know, how well they're or flexible they're at, you know, in terms of, um, solving problems or how, how, how well they function under stress or under pressure. Um, you know, we, you know, Ask questions around, you know, you know, testing their, their optimism, you know, um, to test how they, how well they collaborate, you know, so, you know, each of these, um, questions that are in the kids are tied to one of the companies our company's values, um, which is important for the culture. Um, you know, so these are just prompters for them to, to know like what kind of questions, you know, they could ask that's tied to the, each of the different values that we have. Um, hear. Yeah. 

Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah. It's, it's awesome how that you've, you've taken something, uh, and made it meaningful and applied it and interwoven it into your, your hiring process. Too many times we can almost joke or scoff that values can be written on a wall. Yes. Uh, and that's it. Um, but actually putting it in and helping your team with, uh, uh, coaching on the interview process, uh, interlinked with values is, is great to see. I, I wanna stay on coaching for, for, for one, uh, for one more question related to specifically stakeholder management. Yeah. Um, and, and what I mean by that is could you share some best practices, um, when you've provided recruiting council to hiring managers? . 

Jason Holness

Yeah, I think, um, you know, one thing, uh, one challenge or one major challenge that I tend to find is that, um, a lot of recruitment managers, um, they don't give feedback. You know, um, sometimes they would have an interview and they'll come and say, oh, it's a no , and then I'm like, okay. Um, it's a no. Why ? Because, you know, I'm very big on. Candidate experience and you know, if you know a candidate has spent, you know, 30 minutes or an hour out of their day to interview with you, going back to them and saying, oh, it's a no, it's just not sufficient, it's not enough. You know, so I'm very big on feedback and you know, I've. Spent a lot of time coaching and to, you know, really encouraging, um, hiring managers to be as qualitative as possible with their feedback and to, you know, be clear to me so I can communicate. Because a lot of them also don't feel very comfortable saying that live. In an interview because sometimes they do know that it's a no. However, they don't really feel comfortable, you know, giving a negative response, um, on camera. So they come to HR and it's like, okay, it's a no. , could you handle it? However you know, if I'm willing to handle it, I need to know what are your feelings and opinions, and if I don't really agree as well, because that's something I have to remind a lot as well. It's the collaboration. Because a lot of, you know how manager think that HR as a talent tech, we're working for them, but rather we're working with them and it's a collaboration and as such, you know, their. Uh, motivations we say no has to be objective. It has to be, you know, for clear reasons that are tied to, um, those particular competencies or things that are tied to the job description. So it's, you know, my job to really hold them, you know, to um, you know, to really question their moral compass and to really question their thinking. And, um, Thought process about why, you know, they decided to not move forward with a particular candidate. And, you know, that's where a lot of the coaching comes in. As well as, as, as well as really, you know, giving them best practices as well as, you know, how to, you know, really, um, lead and interview with, you know, with without, because I feel like, you know, we all have our unconscious biases, um, that comes into play. But really coaching them into how to really, you know, remove that bias. Because I feel, you know, all candidates are not the same. I remember, um, once I, you know, I had a first interview with a candidate, um, that was, um, Uh, had a stammer. Um, so, you know, he couldn't speak for more than one minute without, you know, stuttering and, you know, it was very difficult, you know, to enter ex, um, complete the full interview with him. So I decided to, let's type instead. So I would, you know, ask. And so before sending him over to the manager's interview, I had to brief the manager to say, listen, this candidate, um, you know, he has, uh, you know, a. Speech, you know, impediments. And as such, you know, he would need, you know, additional support. You need to be a little bit more, you know, flexible with him. So it's things like that, you know, really preparing them, you know, because we're the first point or the first person that, you know, most of these candidates will speak. And our, and my job is to, you know, ensure that, you know, the next person that the candidate meets is prepared to receive this candidate. And, um, is able to effectively as well assess them, you know, but, but for, for their merit. Um, and not because of other outside factors or of their feelings or what they think. 

Nasser Oudjidane

Sure. How do you hold their feet to the fire? I, I appreciate that. This is a balancing act. Uh, yeah. , but what is the practice, or perhaps could you share any perhaps advice or tips to our audience who. Are dealing with this on a daily basis and are hearing things perhaps that aren't, uh, aligned to best practices. What, what have you found to be helpful and perhaps what isn't helpful? 

Jason Holness

Yeah, in terms of, um, I think, you know, it's, for me, I think it's just, um, being firm. . Um, but being firm, um, you know, with, um, back to by evidence, um, you know, really not being firm and saying, oh, you know, no, this is not right. Because sometimes, you know, different people react differently. Some persons, you can't really come and say, no, this is not correct. This is not right. You need to. Show proof. And I think what has happened or what has helped is that there have been situations, um, that could have been managed better. And you know, I use that as an example to say, had we done this, this would not have happened. So, you know, moving. Forward, you know, if we are to do this, then we can prevent this situation from happening again. And I think, you know, globally and if you approach, um, anyone you know with logic and, you know, approach them, you know, with things, provide evidence and provide, you know, really. You know, clear examples of, you know, why the way they're doing something is not the best way to do it. I think it's a good way for it, but also, you know, recruitment and, you know, and this role is really about relationship building. Um, so it's important to build trust, you know, between yourself and the hiring manager. And, you know, that means that, you know, for me, I have, I, I like to make things. Everything I do a bit more personable, you know, so, you know, if I'm meeting my one, do my one-on-ones. You know, once we have a recruitment process open, we have weekly meetings with the hire managers. So, you know, I book a meeting, you know, in their calendars every weekly meet to really, you know, go over the notes to go over there. Feelings to go over any doubts that they may be having or maybe if there is a blockage in the process to see, you know, how we can work together to, to overcome that. But that's a way as well for me to, to have weekly check-ins to really build a relationship. So once we end the recruitment process, we have created some kind of a bond and there's this kind of trust cuz we have experienced everything, you know, throughout the beginning to the end of the process together. So that creates that trust. So the next recruitment. , they're more open and willing to, you know, to be coopered and to listen because they, they have the stress in saying, okay, you know, he knows what he's saying, , so what, what he's doing? And I trust him. Right? Yeah. . 

Nasser Oudjidane

Right. And what's great and what I heard, and you mentioned this at the beginning of this discussion, was about how to provide feedback and how that actually directly impacts the efficiency of the hiring process. Yeah. Because if you've coached the hiring manager to provide feedback on what is, um, a no, uh, and they can deliver that to the candidate, that means that it saves you spending the time and actually doing it, which can overall result in. Lower time to higher. Yeah, lower cost per higher, et cetera. You've spoke, um, about some of the qualitative aspects when building recruiting processes from scratch and coaching. What are some of the key KPIs that you've tracked in the past, um, that has helped with improving efficiency and the overall quality of candidates that are coming in the door of the business? 

Jason Holness

Yes. Um, so, you know, one of the, the major KPIs that we tend to follow is, you know, time to fill. Um, because, you know, with each recruitment, um, you know, there is, it's planned in the budget. So there's a planned start date. And, you know, we need to really, you know, keep in, you know, really, you know, um, have a good eye on, you know, how long we're taken, you know, to recruit the particular candidates. So, it's my job as well to really work with the hiring managers to ensure that, you know, they're, you know, given feedback, um, you know, timely feedback and not waiting 3, 5, 6 days before they, you know, have, you know, some, you know, give some feedback to the Candidate. But also ensuring that, you know, they are, you know, having availabilities, uh, open in their calendars to have meetings to, to meet with these candidates. Um, so that's one, one of the major kpi because these effects, you know, the time to fill as well as the time to hire. Um, outside of, um, that kpi, I think, uh, a real major KPI has been, you know, working on, you know, the diversity in a aspect. Um, you know, so the globally, in terms of, in terms of, you know, the, the men woman in a proportion within the candidate pipeline, we don't really have. Control over that. But really, you know, it's when, you know, we, you know, are coming to the end of the process in terms of, you know, for example, for a development recruitment manager, um, we have Plan 10 recruitments for the year. Um, it's really to say let's, um, you know, maybe through, you know, direct sourcing try to, you know, um, add, you know, some more female tech talents, um, within the pipeline so that we are able to, you know, Create a balance within the tech team and not make it, you know, only, you know, we know that tech is a male dominated, um, you know, field, but you know, there are ways to kind of help and to, you know, with extra sourcing and with extra resources to ensure that there's at least, you know, some diversity and, um, you know, some balance when it comes to, to male and female. Um, um, team members. Um, but you know, those have been, you know, like the time to fill, the time to hire and, you know, the diversity as some of the major KPIs that, you know, that have informed, you know, my current, you know, recruitment processes and the processes that I'm wor I've been working in. 

Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah, I, I, let's stay on diversity for a second. I, I know that from our discussions in the past that this is a subject that's close to your heart, how, um, Do you develop this in the business to be something which is, uh, always looked at, always talked about inter interwoven into the process, and something which you can actually report back to leadership with, um, metrics and improvement. What are you doing, uh, to help with diversity? 

Jason Holness

Yeah. So, you know, as you mentioned, um, yeah, diversity is, you know, very near and dear to me. Um, and I, I think when I first, um, started here, um, that was one of the conversations I had with the CEO was like, okay, this is, you know, uh, a north star metric that I would like to, you know, like to have. And you know, how I've been doing it and how we as a people team have been, you know, doing it is by really, um, having, you know, quarterly DE & I programming, not just, um, centered at the global, you know, the global team, but also, you know, centering at the leadership. Because I feel like, you know, for diversity and equity and inclusion to work, it has to come from top down, and that's including the. C-suite and a departmental manager. So we need the, the buy-in from them, you know, for it to, you know, to work, you know, globally and for it to be, you know, embedded within the core or the fabric, you know, of the teams and the company. So it was, you know, it's been through, you know, quarterly DEI um, programming, you know, talking about, unconscious and conscious bias in the recruitment process. Um, how can we develop better hiring practices, talking about, um, topics like microaggression, talking about, you know, topics such as cultural competence, which is a topic that I'll be doing, you know, next week, , next week on Wednesday, and I'll be doing, uh, a workshop on cultural competence. Um, Which is, you know, something that we don't really think about quite a lot, especially in a company, we're a global company with team members, you know, from the uk, Canada, France, Turkey, um, the us, you know, so different cultures and we all communicate in a different way. and sometimes we tend to, you know, forget this and we take, you know, certain, you know, reactions on how someone might respond to something personal and maybe it's just a cultural difference. And if we are, you know, we had a little bit more cultural competence that we could really overcome and um, really live more peacefully. And, um, and that, that's something you encounter a lot as well in interview processes. Um, you know, I find myself, you know, especially when I meet. , um, candidates, um, matter from, you know, China for example. I, I know that for them, you know, they're very, um, you know, detail oriented. So I might ask them, you know, a question about, um, tell me a little bit about yourself. And they, you know, they start going down, tell 'em, give me a long list of, you know, their achievements and, you know, very detail oriented. And that's, you know, because you know, culturally, you know, they're quite studious people and that's their approach. And they tend to not show, you know, From my experience, a lot of, you know, personality and stuff like that, but that doesn't mean that they don't have a personality, you know, that means that they're just, it's an interview and for them it's more formal. Um, and it's natural for them to be more formal in these kind of settings. So if we are a bit cultural competent, we know how best to break the ice and to, you know, really better interact, you know, with the candidates and the people that we meet on a day to on a daily basis. 

Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah.That's fascinating. When, when I, um, when I first heard cultural competency, I thought that you were, uh, assessing the, the competencies of each culture, but it actually means to be open to Yes. Learning about the communication styles and to be competent with dealing with differences. Yes. I, I, that's, I think that's the, the key, right? 

Jason Holness

That's the key. 

Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah. Uh, because more often than not, if you're used to being in one area, uh, of, of geography, you're used to a certain, uh, style of communication. Anything different from that you see is negative. Uh, and exactly. That is fundamentally, 

Jason Holness

Yeah. And that's tied in with our biases as well. Um, yeah. 

Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah. I really like that. And yeah, all the best of the workshop. I, um, . I, I think that is a, a truly important subject. Um, and, and staying with, um, With, with you mentioned, uh, the candidate experience earlier, what steps have you taken to improve the journey? You mentioned at the beginning something that I, I thought was really important and compelling, which was that you start almost backwards. It's the hiring process. How would I feel if I was going through this process? Yeah. Uh, could, could you share a little bit more about your thinking about the candidate experience and, and why you think it's important?

Jason Holness‍

I think it's important because, um, you know, as I mentioned earlier as well, is that, you know, candidates are people you know, like yourself and myself. And, you know, oftentimes because we're sitting, we're now, most of us are sitting behind our computers, um, 90% or maybe a hundred percent of our days, and the application comes in and we see. Most people see these candidates as applications. They see them as a people's piece of paper, but not realizing that there's a person behind this piece of paper, um, with hopes and dreams like the rest of us. Um, and, you know, maybe, you know, they're looking for a job for different reason. Maybe they have been laid off, you know, maybe, you know, they, you know, are looking, you know, for a career change. Maybe they're just currently an unemployed and, you know, they, they want an opportunity. Um, so. That's why that's important for, so first and first, I see Candidates as a, as a person, I see the person behind the CV and I would like to have for them to have as best experience as possible because even if you don't hire them today, you know, they might be, uh, a recurring applicant. You know, they might not be good for that role, but potentially they might be good for a future role. So you would like, you'd like them to, I would like them to walk away with a good taste in and their mouths, you know, for lack of a better expression, a good experience, you know, so that, you know, they will go out and they would share with other, um, you know, future, um, potential candidates. Oh, I've applied for, you know, reveal, you know, the recruitment. I didn't get it the job, but the recruitment process was so amazing. Feedback was so good. Um, I will definitely recommend you to apply for this company, or, oh, I'm definitely gonna apply again for this company because the recruitment process was so amazing and I felt seen, I felt valued. I felt like, you know, everything was coherent and I understood why, um, you know, I wasn't picked for the role. 

Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah.And, and what are you, uh, measuring or what have you implemented to help with that? Are there any SLAs? For instance, when an applicant comes in or you've mentioned hiring manager feedback, when, when is, in terms of timelines are, uh, your communication with candidates due.

Jason Holness

Yeah. So I, I'm communicating with the candidates, you know, from start to finish. Um, and you know, what I've also implemented, um, you know, thanks to our ats we're able to, you know, have like a quick NPS that we can send out to candidates, you know, at the end of the process, you know, for them to, you know, give their feedback and their feelings as to, you know, Experienced it. So I'm able to see as well, you know, based on those statistics, um, you know, how, you know, candidates, um, felt and responded to the process. Um, but outside of that, I mean, what warms my heart the most is that, you know, when I. Send a candidate, you know, rejection and you know, an email or give them feedback. You know, when they come back to me and tell me that, wow, this was, you know, I really appreciated this, you know, you know, I really understand and I will definitely be applying again for next another position. 

Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah, that's really great to hear, and I'd love to talk about another area which you are passionate about, which are soft skills. Yes. Uh, you've d you've described them as essential skills and yeah. They're often overlooked. Um, can you tell us a little bit more about your experience and perhaps share some tips to our audience on what is it that they should focus on? 

Jason Holness

Yeah, no, I think, um, you know, as I said, soft skills are essential skills. Um, you know, often, oftentimes we're hiring for a role. We look at, um, you know, the hard skills. Okay. You know, what they know how to do and the things that you can visibly, you know, assess. But I think the soft skills also tied, intertwined with the, the culture fit, you know, and you know how. Does this candidate, you know, fit within the culture of the company? Or how well will this candidate add to the culture of the company? And, you know, that also goes back to knowing the company's values and to, you know, really, you know, knowing, you know, what, what are the makings of a true, you know, um, for us, a true revealer, so to say. So I think in terms of best practices for that, it's just really, you know, knowing what the company values are and really knowing, you know, the team and knowing whether or not, you know, this team member, um, this candidate will, would fit well with the new team. Um, and that's why it's important for them to have the opportunity to meet the team members. Um, and also to meet in a, the team members, that team member that's in the com, the team that they're joining, but also a team member that's, you know, within another team in the company. For them to also assess whether or not, you know, because it's not just us interviewing them or assessing their soft skills, it's them also interviewing us. And assessing how well their soft skills matches with our culture and, you know, the soft skills of the people within the team so that they can ask questions as to, you know, what is it like working here at Reveal and being, you know, having an open conversation and assessing on their part, you know, whether or not you know it's a good fit, you know, for them as well.

Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah. And, and speaking of fit and, and, and culture ad and culture fit, could you share your experience with employee referral programs? What has worked, what hasn't worked in your experience?

Jason Holness Yeah, I think, uh, that's a good question. Uh, you know, I. Just, um, a few weeks ago mentioned this, that we'll be, you know, focusing more and more on employee referrals, um, because that's something that we really want to prioritize. Not only does it add, you know, value to the particular employee because they feel like they're contributing, you know, towards, um, the, the growth of the company and the growth of the teams. But, you know, it's also, you know, of good or high value for us. Um, you know, as the talent acquisition, you know, um, team members, uh, when we have a referral from, you know, someone, because oftentimes it's people that they know, you know, that they've worked with, um, that, you know, we would not otherwise had found, you know, through a candidate spontaneously applying or for us, you know, going out on sourcing because usually these profiles are quite qualitative. So I really encourage, um, employee referrals and, you know, prioritize that, you know, you. Over any other, um, forms of, um, source, you know, when once a job opens, yeah 

Nasser Oudjidane

How, how are you going to lean into it? You mentioned it's gonna be a priority to kind of, uh, make your team members aware Yes. And, and encourage engagement. What, what are some of the ideas, uh, and things that you're thinking of doing? 

Jason Holness

So we already have like, uh, an an incentive, uh, which is something that we promote all the time. So in, if you make a, uh, a referral, uh, we have a 2000 Euro incentive. You know, if we were to hire this, um, particular candidate as well as, um, and their, to pass their probationary period. So that's, uh, you know, a high incentive that really motivates, uh, our employees to, to want to, you know, refer candidates. Um, you know, outside of that, you know, on our, in our ats you know, on our, the employee dashboard and our ats, there is a leaderboard kind of system so that they're able to see, you know, who has, you know, referred the most. You know, so that's, that makes the quite of a competitive kind of thing. So, you know, like, okay, you know, this person has been referring that much. People I want to, you know, be on leaderboard as well. Um, so that's an aspect. Um, you know, that's another aspect or a way that we kind of encourage, uh, you know, by this sort of gamification, you know, of the referral process, but also by offering, you know, incentives, you know, for, for refereeing a candidate and to. Really encouraging them, you know, okay, look, you know, it's a win-win. You know, you help us, you scratch our back and we'll scratch yours. 

Nasser Oudjidane

‍ Um, yeah, right, and It, and it's great that you're set, you're creating a sense of friendly competition and it's, um, also great to see that with that leaderboard, you can see people that have made tires to the business. And, uh, the results Yeah. Uh, of, of their efforts, which is, which is really great to see that transparency within the hiring process. You've mentioned in the past some of the practices when building and scaling teams. What do you think are some of the poor practices? What do you think when you are seeing, you know, LinkedIn feeds or perhaps advice from other talent and people, leaders? That isn't, uh, progressive. It's not, um, aligned to best practices, it's bs. What myth do you think needs to be put in the trash? 

Jason Holness

Yeah. Um, that's a good question. I think, um, everyone, you know, that comes forward and makes LinkedIn post, I mean, I think for them that's the, that's their best approach. Um, you know, we, you know, I think we are all layered, you know, individuals and a lot of the things that we kind of, um, promote or as best practices are based on. our experience and, um, you know, what has worked, you know, for, you know, us individually. Um, but for me, I think, um, one thing I, that everybody has been backtracking on, especially in the midst of, um, the recession that we are, that, you know, that that's happening. And you know, what we've been seeing, you know, with the layoffs in big tech. I mean, previously it was about higher, higher, higher, higher. You know, he is like, you know, you. A bit of funding, you're like, okay, that's the best way to, to grow. You know, we need to hire more people. But then, you know, I'm of the thought that, you know, really investing in the current team, um, that you currently have, um, is the best strategy. Um, and really, you know, trying to, you, it's. See if there are roles that you know you need to fill that can be filled through internal mobility. And you know, and that's internal mobility is also tied to learning development. How, you know, how can you prepare, upskill and provide training formation to your current team members to fill future roles that has not yet been created, um, internally into organization. So I think that's something, you know, That probably more and more HR professionals, um, will look towards, especially within this context and the fact that, you know, we don't have the budgets, um, as before to to be hiring new employees. Um, how can we upscale, you know, how can we promote, you know, um, more, you know, internal mobility?

Nasser Oudjidane

I'm, I'm impressed and think that what you've just mentioned there is important with regards to a proactive approach . Um, whereas usually HR is considered administrative and reactive. Actually taking, um, something that you said before is resources as before, which is really important. , perhaps for those listeners that aren't, uh, you know, More than five years experience. The normal, uh, uh, state within human resources and recruiting as a whole is to actually be under-resourced and having to do more with less. Yes. And it's only the last couple of years where there's been a lot of funding and a lot of hiring, recruiting, um, and many companies didn't have the foresight to look ahead and think about, uh, issues such as learning and development, internal mobility and, and, and forecasting what the future could look like. And preparing for that. So it's, it's great to see. Um, last question before we get into the closing questions. What tech are you using to do your job? Please feel free to shut out any products delivering value. 

Jason Holness

Yeah. Um, so in terms of tech, so we have, um, team Taylor, um, which is our ats. Um, uh, my heart my heart, um, because it really, it, uh, it's really quite effective and it's really helped us a lot. Um, um, in terms of outside of that tech, um, you know, we we're using also, hi Bob, um, you know, as our HR SCRH or HRES a Human Resource Information System. Um, you know, which has really helped us to, you know, really tie in, um, everything in terms of um, um, you know, the administration, you know, of our team and employees, especially in terms of surveys and to really give in visibility and organizational org. And, you know, also, So, you know, giving kudos. Uh, so, so it's called and Hi Bob to team members who are high performing or just to, you know, give appreciation to that, to somebody who give, gave me, gave you a helping end throughout the course of the week. Um, but also, um, give a shout out to Agnostic, you know, which is another tool that I use quite often, you know, to, for the analytics side, you know, team Tailor is quite great with that. And, um, hi Bob as well. Yeah, all of the data and information is kind of filtered into agnostic and you know, there I can see globally, um, you know, from the recruitment end, but also from, you know, the people management, you know, the team management end, you know, what the datas are in terms of retention, in terms of, um, um, you know, The recruitment KPIs, um, in terms of, uh, what other things? Diversity, just all of those statistics. Um, so yeah, those are some three. Um, three, three tools, three tech that, you know, we're using internally that, you know, can shout out. Yeah. . 

Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah. Big shout out to Team Taylor. Hi Bob. Agnostic. We'll put them into the show notes and there's, there's nothing better than hearing that type of customer love. Um, I'm, I'm genuinely, genuinely excited, uh, for, for, for them and, and for the fact that you're getting value from them. Moving into closing questions. What's one piece of advice that you wish you had when you started your career in HR? 

Jason Holness

Hmm. One piece of advice I wish I had when I started my career in HR. Hmm. I think one piece of advice I would be was like, you know, um, if it would be, um, experience, um, doesn't necessarily equate to, to competence. . Um, I think that's it. Yeah. And I think that's how, you know, I have, you know, led all of the recruitment process as well, because I meet many candidates, you know, who don't have, you know, 15, 10, you know, six years of experience. However, they're much more competent, you know, than, you know, a candidate that, you know have, you know, more experience on them. So that, That's one thing I think that would've helped me to, you know, to be a bit more, um, you know, confident and to, you know, really, um, you know, be more vocal and sharing my opinions. Um, because sometimes it can be intimidating being in rooms with, you know, um, other, you know, um, professionals who are, you know, have more experience than you and, you know, You don't have that much experience. You feel like, you know, maybe what you have to say doesn't add, have as much weight or it would not add as much value.

Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah. Is there anything that you are reading, listening to, or watching that you find inspirational? . 

Jason Holness

Mm. Reading. Listen to or watching, um, , to be honest, no, . Do, do you know what I think? I think on my off, you know, when I'm off , when I'm off work, you know, because my, you know, my day to day hours. Is, is so, um, you know, academic and so has a lot of thinking and I'm so organized when I'm off, off, I just turn off and I like to just, um, plug into to Netflix or, you know, watch, you know, just senseless reality tv. Um, I'm that kind of person. Um, but no, no, no, I'm not really listening or, or, um, reading anything. However, I'll say this. Soon we're implementing like an lms, uh, with internally, um, that will have give us access to books and all of those things. So I've already, um, you know, started playing around and I've saw, seen a lot of options. So I'm looking forward to really using that resource to, you know, really, um, start buying some books and, you know, listening to some podcasts cuz we'll be able to do that as well, you know, via the, the, the new lms. So I'm super excited about that. 

‍Nasser Oudjidane‍

That's cool. Super cool. Last question. , what is one thought value or phrase, if any, uh, that you live by?

Jason Holness

Mm. One thought value. Mm. I think it's, the race is not for the swift, you know, but for those who can endure. Um, yeah, I think that's it. Um, yeah, I feel like, you know, slow progress is better than no progress. And, you know, sometimes we want to, you know, just hurry up and, and get there, you know? But you know, if anything, We are now out of the, you know, um, we're past the pandemic. Um, but I think as human beings we tend to really forget. I think when we're in, you know, the midst of Covid and maybe after a little bit, you know, we start talking about we're gonna appreciate every day and, you know, we're going to, you know, be grateful for this and that. But I think now, uh, many of us has gone back to our regular lives and we tend to forget the. Stop and smell the roses and realize that we want to get to our destination, but it's not the person that's gonna move the quickest, you know, that's gonna get there. You know, it's, you know, those, you know, who can endure the storms, can endure the little hiccups and can endure, you know, all of the things that will happen along the way that, you know, will really, you know, get there, you know, better.

Nasser Oudjidane

Powerful stuff. Jason, this has been incredible. Thank you for your time. 

Jason Holness

Thank you so much. Uh, it's been a pleasure.