Alex Seiler‍

so I think the first mistake, that people sometimes make is like, all roads lead to the CEO. obviously a lot of roads lead to the CEO but if you are only getting CEO buy-in or visibility or socializing ideas with just the CEO, you're missing a huge chunk of the pie, basically. Right. And frankly, the CEO. Is actually looking to see if you've socialized your ideas with the rest of the C-suite and if they're on board. So my biggest recommendation always and how I've got my strategy sold across the line and quicker is develop one-on-ones and one-on-one relationships with each member of the C-Suite. And even before you've presented a strategy. Start socializing your ideas. See what they have to say, because if you think you're gonna get pushback on certain things, you'll know early before you actually present that strategy as well. And then by the time you present it, It's not a surprise cuz you've already been talking arou about it along the way.

Nasser Oudjidane

Hello and welcome to our series of Scaling Stories, a discussion with people and talent leaders about their lessons building teams at some of the world's fastest growing companies. I'm excited to introduce our guest today, Alex Seiler, the Chief People Officer at G H J Alex, A huge welcome and thank you for joining. To get started, could you tell us a little bit about yourself and your back? . 

Alex Seiler 

Sure. Absolutely. and thanks again Nasser for having me first and foremost. So I, am a bit of a, what I call a bit of a global mutt. So I'm half British, half Swiss. I was born and raised in Hong Kong and I've been living in the US for, the last 19 years.just celebrated that anniversary and over 18 of which have been in the people or HR space as well. So, currently as you mentioned, working for G H J, which is a 230 person. Accounting and business advisory firm, which exists across the us but have worked in many different industries in my career. Everything from, real estate, to entertainment, to financial services, to publishing. You name it, I've kind of touched it. So very much a believer of. Diversity of thought and diversity of industry. and also, currently aside from, you know, cuz I guess I don't like to sleep, I just always want my hand in something. I'm also advising two tech startups, aside from my day job as well. 

Nasser Oudjidane 

That's incredible. And congrats on your, US anniversary. 

Alex Seiler

Thank you. Thank you. I've spent time on the east and west coast, so I have a good, a good sense of the different parts of, of the US now as well. 

Nasser Oudjidane

And you mentioned, diversity of thought and industry. We've traditionally, on this podcast, spoken about scaling and just considering the macro environment you have experience when working in industries that are and companies that are on the decline. How do you think about that and its impact towards personal growth?

Alex Seiler

Yeah, it's a really good story. and question really is that, yeah, I've worked in industries that have been on the decline. What's interesting, they've been, culturally some of the most fun places I've worked, and where I've learned so much, because frankly we don't have the resources, to, to basically, so everything really fell on myself. There was a lot. The irony of, or the pun as I could say here, as I had to scale up and down a lot myself, cuz I didn't necessarily have the resources to do that. But, I think the challenge there, Nasser, is that long term, it's hard to remain in an industry like that because they're so focused on the bottom line, and just cutting from the bottom line. And there is not really any sort of directional strategy. To get things back on course. So, you know, unfortunately, and I'll use publishing as a good example, one of my favorite industries I've in, but the challenge that the publishing, publishing industry finds itself in is it's very hard to, it's been moved hard to really. Continue to monetize and grow that industry. It's, it's somewhat of a dying industry at this point. And so my legacy was one where I was doing a lot of restructuring by the time I left, and, I really wanted to go back to, places where I could really grow and develop talent. Right. and so that's, that's been the challenge in, in working in places like that. Luckily, For where I am right now, that's exactly what I'm doing. you don't necessarily think of a public accounting firm as one that's going through maybe hyper-growth mode, but you know, in the last year, we have increased our headcount by 25%. and in the last four years, we've doubled our revenue. so we really are in, growth mode. We've done a couple, small acquisitions and we're continuing to remain fiercely independent and, and have a strong growth trajectory as well. So I'm happy that I'm in a place where I am now because to your point, you know, being in an organization which is on the decline, it makes it hard one selfishly to think about how you are gonna grow, and selflessly how you can look at people and say how you're gonna help them grow as well.

Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah. That was really succinctly put and also really like how you've described the benefits, in, in some cases of having resource co. Cuz that can spur some type of innovation. And it's also very interesting how you've discussed, pockets of growth accountancy services. Who knew, is, is, is actually growing. Which is, which is quite industry. Yeah. You, you've mentioned, to me in the past, how it's really important that people, leaders must understand the business and then create the strategy. So as a people leader, instead of applying a cookie, a cookie cutter approach, what experiences and tips could you share to our audience to actually not fall into this trap?

Alex Seiler

Yeah, no, absolutely. So, you know, I mentioned diversity of industry and, and by the way, I'm not taking away from anyone that's spent most of their career at one company or one industry. I think there's a lot of pluses to that. For me, I've just benefited from different experiences and learning from each of them and then taking something away from them to whatever company I'm currently at. So the beauty for example, at G H J is I've pulled from things that have happened in my past that I think may work. and then there's also gonna be things I would never pull from. Cause I'm like, then just not gonna work the way the business model is set up, at my current firm. . the reason I say that is if you don't understand the business, you're not really gonna understand what's gonna be the best, strategy to implement there. I'll use accounting as a good example, right? So what I love about where I am now is I have a leadership team that is super progressive, very much, focused on a strong people agenda, and a really has a really strong culture that I can already build off of. . But let's be honest, at the end of the day, it's still public accounting. Right. And that means there are strict, what I would call, you know, busy seasons for audits and tax professionals and nasa during those periods. Those employees do not want to be inundated with a lot of change. They don't wanna be inundated with a lot of things cuz they're working 60, 70 hour week sometimes. Right. So my team have to be super intentional about when we do roll. New things, new strategies, new concepts so that we get their eyes and ears on those kinds of things. Versus another other companies I've worked at where you don't have your quote unquote busy seasons. So you have much more, you have more time throughout the year to actually roll out new things. So that's what I talk about when I say not taking a cookie, cookie cutter approach. If you don't understand the business you're in and you try to roll things. you're gonna get pushback if it's got an adverse impact on the employee. So that's something to really keep top of mind.

Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah, absolutely. what, what have you seen in terms of resistant traditional HR practices that can prevent progressive forward-looking strategies that can optimize and, and, and transform HR?

Alex Seiler

Yeah. I think part of the reason, candidly, that I was bought into GHJ for example, is that they've not historically got the people or, HR function. Right. and or they've not quite figured it out. It sounded like coming in. We had, we've experienced a lot of bandaid solutions in the past and not long-term strategies. And I'm all about, coming up with long-term strategies. Right. and so I think part of what I've done is to try and create repeatable, repeatable processes and strategies. Sort of stand the test of time versus being just a one off sort of scenario. And I think that's what's happened in the past. Like, oh yeah, we did that, but we did that three years ago. Okay, well if it was so great, why are we still not doing it today? Right. the other thing is I think for certain more traditional. Whether I'm not gonna even call it industries or look at hr, traditional companies that look in HR in a very traditional way, they still see it as much more operationally focused. Right. and I would say what I'm starting to see is, you know, the person that I lean on, sort of my number two on my team, she handles a lot of the operational FO pieces day to day. That's the only way that I'm able to build and transform the strategy, right? Because we're fixing, building and growing at the same time and I can't do all of that unless I have somebody and a team to lean on that's really handling the day-to-day operations. And I think that's sometimes lost on, you know, certain businesses or companies if they don't really understand the inner workings of what goes on behind the scenes as well. So I, I think, I think there's still that, and people not fully understanding how. The pandemic really upended, what the people function does. we still need to continue to do things we've done in the past. We have to do a lot of things that we've never touched before, nor do we have the answer for. And then we had something called covid thrown in the mix as well. And so, I think with all those things, I think some people still have a very, should we say a much more narrow view of what the HR function is than what it actually is in reality.

Nasser Oudjidane

 How do you see it actually developing in terms of things that have traditionally existed and the operational aspects that will, you know, continue to, to happen and perhaps how does, how do you find, how do you define the scope to be broadened? 

Alex Seiler

Yeah, I think that, that's a great question. I think, so what I'm starting to see is a little bit more of that change between. what quote, unquote, A C H R O versus like A C P O? I, I think that what I'm starting to see is the C H R O tends to be a little bit more, that role is starting to become a little bit more operational in nature, and the C P O is kind of more. of that transform, sort of role. Right. and I think that, look, not all companies, depending on their size, their revenue, their scale can have both of those types of positions. But you need to make sure that those skills and capabilities live in-house in some capacity. Right. I also think like, you know, the other thing that's interesting to me is, That, you know, in the past or these days we hear a lot about chief people, officers becoming potentially CEOs or COOs. The other role that I find really interesting that is a natural sort of progression is a chief strategy officer. Cuz if you're a great C P O, you live and breathe people strategy every day. So if you understand the business, as we were talking about before, the next sort of natural evolution for you is not just to own people's strategy for your company or. But own strategy for the company or firm as a whole as well.

Nasser Oudjidane 

Yeah. Very interesting. And perhaps on that point, what do you do personally to stay ahead of the game? And I'm sure this influences your own path and trajectory, and I would say chief people, officers and their path and trajectory. What, what type of learning development is actually going to, propel you into those positions? not just confined within HR itself. 

Alex Seiler‍

So, absolutely. So I like to see myself, and I talk to my team a lot about this as just having a sort of learning agility and a learning posture. You know, I, I am a student of, I still consider, and I always will be a student of people in HR and also a student of the industry that I'm in, whatever that is. And at this time, it's obviously currently at this time it's, it's in accounting. So, there's a few different things I do. first of all, the CPO role. A very lonely one, right? Like any role when you get to the C-suite, it's, it gets lonely at the top. Not to sound sort of cliche, but in a role like a chief people officer role, it's very, you have very few people who really understand the challenges that you're going through, so, I, one thing that I heavily rely on is, a forum called C P O hq, which is a, you know, a forum of a lot of different people, leaders, largely from tech and VBC back companies, but other, other companies too. And it's a way of us confidentially sharing our experiences, best practices, what we are going through, leveraging each other as thought partners. Potentially as your, you know, part of your own po personal board of directors, things of that nature. so that's something I find really valuable. I like to, I like to learn from those folks as well and vice versa. Also attending conferences and speaking conferences like Transform, and some other things I learned from others through that. And get a good sense of what other people are talking. In the industry and what's coming next, frankly, as well. and then also now starting to learn more about the industry that I'm in. So, like I said, learning more about the accounting industry. You know, I feel like in the last year or so that I have been in accounting, I've really learned the industry well, but my goal is to go from the equivalent of high school to college learning on that front over, over the next year as well. so that's how I try to stay current. for me, I obviously read a lot of articles, a lot of different books as well. and you know, like to take in different information. I. I, I like to think that I can give back to my team and I like to learn from others, because I don't know, I don't have all the answers. And anyone that says they do is, is very much, frankly, lying from my, from my perspective. So, so yeah, so I just, having that learning posture and that learning agility is super key. because also, like I said, otherwise it gets lonely if you're not willing to branch out and build a strong network, network around you. 

‍Nasser Oudjidane

Absolutely. And the we'll put in the, the Chief People Officer HQ community in, in our notes. What are some of the, major challenges in the workforce landscape, which are being discussed that you are seeing that folks need to prepare for? 

Alex Seiler

Yeah, I think look a big one that is, not the elephant in the room because we see it and it's really sad to see on social, like LinkedIn every day is the amount of layoffs that are going on right now. Right. So, but particularly, across tech and crypto and industries like that, that really struggle once you start going into, a recession. Right? but I, I recently, you know, myself posted something and said, Not everything is tech either, so you've really gotta think about the industry that you're in. So, again, going back to accounting, listen, I never thought I'd be working in accounting. It's not the sexiest profession out there, but it is more recession proof, right. then, and actually what's happening right now in our industry is less and less people assigning up to take accounting degrees, which means we are Struggling. From a supply and demand perspective. So, we're, one of our focus areas, and actually I'm having a retreat with my team next week, is around how do we attract more early career professionals to actually want to have a career in public accounting? Because it is a challenge that. , our industry, faces as far as attracting talent as well. So that, that's a big one specific to our industry. I think another one is, that I think we're all kind of facing or dealing with is, which I think is a good thing, is now there's more and more pay transparency laws out there, so making sure that you are. Really looking at pay fairly equitably and looking at it in as many different ways as possible as well, right? how you reward, and, and recognize your individuals is continues to be top of mind. for me, the other one that's an ongoing one that I, I think we'll we'll see is, Is the, hybrid remote workforce and structure, and equity around that. So, I don't know if you obviously saw the article from Bob Iger the other day about asking Disney employees to return to the office four days a week. Personally have a lot of respect for Bob Iger, but I think it's a mistake. but you know, he has been bought back to really by, in, in the short term, to kind. Turn things around at Disney. and frankly on a, I'm sure on a selfish level to preserve his own legacy. But I do think, while I think it could work in the short term, cuz as we said, there's more layoffs, the market is tightening, people are worried about their jobs, right? So I think it's a strategy that will likely work for them in the short term, but long term, all the data. Yeah, I mean, there's no shortage of data. All the data that's out there that you pull from says that people at the end of the day want a hybrid. Hybrid working structure. So I do think that certain companies will lose out if they start doing these sort of quote unquote forced return to offices as well. So those are some of the big ones. and I think for us, we continue to look at how do we provide equity and fairness around benefits regardless of whether you are. You spend time in the office or you don't. So, that's another big one for me as well, and create opportunities, for people as well. another thing I wanna do is kind of dispel misnomers that if you work remotely, that there is not a way to grow your career. we actually just hired, or hiring our first remote partner. so we're kind of walking the talk on that because everyone always thought, oh, you've gotta be in the greater Los Angeles area where most of the other partners are to grow. not true. and we've done that because now we're hiring somebody. We've just hired somebody on the East coast who's gonna work remotely, so we continue to defy convention, particularly for a public accounting firm too. , 

Nasser Oudjidane

yeah. Really, really interesting points that you've raised there. yeah, one thing that I was thinking about regarding your pay transparency was that some companies are not perhaps implementing the spirit of the law, with releasing, software engineering roles between 90,000 and 900,000, dollars per year where that's frankly ridiculous. Yeah. I'd, I'd like, I'd like to talk about, how. , you build relationships at the C-suite. You were mentioning that getting up to that level, can, can be lonely, but are you able to share any tips of our audience with regards to how. , you can present what the strategy is for people in HR to the other areas of the business. Yeah. And get them on board and actually execute the plan.

Alex Seiler

Yeah, absolutely. So I think the first mistake, that people sometimes make is like, all roads lead to the ceo. obviously a lot of roads lead to the CEO, but if you are only getting CEO buy-in or visibility or socializing ideas with just the CEO, you're missing a huge chunk of the pie, basically. Right. And frankly, the CEO. Is actually looking to see if you've socialized your ideas with the rest of the C-suite and if they're on board. So my biggest recommendation always and how I've got my strategy sold across the line and quicker is develop one-on-ones and one-on-one relationships with each member of the C-Suite. And even before you've presented a strategy, start socializing your. See what they have to say because if you think you're gonna get pushback on certain things, you'll know early before you actually present that strategy as well. And then by the time you present it, It's not a surprise cuz you've already been talking arou about it along the way. So socializing things behind the scenes to other members of the C-suite is really important to me, and has worked very well, in my favor for my career as well. The other thing I, I would say is make sure you're moving from talk to action, right? And have clear timelines and deliverables. I, you know, Mike Rev, I've, I've worked with people frankly who, who talk a very good game. But when it comes to executing a plan, have struggled. and so the end of the day is where you'll garner respect from the C-suite is actually putting those things into action and sticking to your timeline, sticking to your plan as well. So figuring out how you operationalize that strategy as well is, is really key. And then I think the other thing is finding commonality with. With members of the, the C-suite and truly being a thought partner to them and, and, flexible in your approach too. and recognizing that change takes time, right? is, is another thing. And you can't force, you can't force change down people's throats because then they'll just resist it. So, those are things that have really played well in, in. In my experiences and frankly will be continue how I, how I do things in my career. So cuz if it's not broken, I'm not gonna fix it. That's the strategy that's worked well. 

Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah. And on the flip side with regards to being a leader, managing teams, yeah. Your words can carry a lot of weight and. in some instances, you want to obviously make sure that you can create a culture of safety so that you can enable your team to speak the truth. Yeah. Yeah. Have you found any, ways of doing that you think is valuable sharing? 

Alex Seiler

Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, leadership, like anything else is a journey, right? And, I will say, and I stand by this, my team and I particularly, my direct reports joke that we need this in a t-shirt. I say, leadership is tiring, but rewarding. You know, that's, that's one. First of all, I, I stand behind because each day presents a new challenge, but once you work through it, it's super exciting to see it on the, on the other, to be on the other side of it. and fixing, building and growing is tiring, but it's also highly rewarding, right? As, as you scale, What I love about my team today, and I'm lucky that I've built really great teams in my career, but I'm not gonna lie, this is a team that I'm just, is so special to me because that I've currently built and I've built from scratch since I've been here, is that we have such high psychological safety and such high trust. I actually joke sometimes and say, I think we have too much because we, we laugh and make fun of each other so much. and I, I have to get us back on course sometimes as a result. . But and then the other thing is we really operate, and you know, everyone uses this term that I've done is with a team within a team concept, right? So you can't just be focused on your own sort of sub functional vertical, right? Like, if you are working in, you know, total rewards and you think you only need to know about total rewards, that's your first mistake. You need to know enough about the rest of what's going on in the people function. One. So you're dangerous and you come across as credible and competent, but also so that if buffer forbid somebody in total awards is out, you can answer, you know, general questions about what's going on so you don't feel like you've got single points of failure on the team. So the team within a team concept is one. that's really important. And the last one I would say is, I would say to my team to expect the unexpected. right. We have a roadmap, we have a plan, we have a clear idea of where we're going or what we're doing this year, but anything can happen and we need to be prepared to pivot on a, a dime, right? We may have to do a small acquisition that wasn't part of the plan, but we'll figure it out. We may start creating market hubs. . Okay. What does that mean and how do we need to support the business to make that happen? So just be prepared for that. and if it happens, be prepared to figure it out and de deprioritize certain things and reprioritize others. 

‍Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating agility and resilience. Yeah. and you, you've also mentioned to me in the past with regards to, the market changing, hiring, slowing down. retention being one of the, the key themes of 2023. What do you think are some of the fundamentals when approaching engagement and retention? Why do you think it's so important? 

Alex Seiler

Yeah, I think it's so important for a number of reasons, to be honest. I think that first of all, even as the market tightens, there's always, there's always opportunities out there, especially for good people. So if you've got high performers, They wanna still know that they're being taken care of and that, and I'm not talking about financially even I'm talking about that you're thinking about their careers and how they're growing. So, you know, if you are a company or firm who hasn't really invested in much on in talent review and succession planning, this is the time now to be doubling down on those efforts and really figuring out. Honestly, when I look at what's called like a risk value model, who, who brings, who brings a tremendous amount of value and who are you, who is also potentially a risk? And make sure that you are developing a development plan in a clear career path, for those individuals, right? Because they really will wanna understand what's next from me, even in a sort of recession or a down economy. So, you know, I think for most companies and firms right now, people are switching. Hiring being a focus to more around upskilling development and, and retention, to your point. The other thing is, The other thing as far as engagement is how are you continuing to upskill your people, right? and that that's both for the benefit of their career and frankly the company or firm itself. So one of the things we are rolling out is, well, we're rolling out two things this year. one is a building, high performing teams training that can scale across the organization, and have trained the trainers, to help facilitate that. and then the other thing is a durable skills curriculum. So, you know, I think some companies still do quote unquote traditional manager training. we wanna get away from that and do more durable skills training. So skills that you will need that will stand the test of time, whether that's leadership, whether that's critical thinking, whether that's things of that nature. So really making that a focus point, because people wanna know that you're invested in them as well. And then lastly, engagement is so key because, you know, There's been so many great things about having a hybrid remote structure, but sometimes you just don't know how people are feeling. Right? And as we talk about like things, people feel less connected sometimes. and loneliness, mental health issues are a thing and a thing that we need to be conscious of. So making sure that you feel connected, that people feel connected to their teams, that you talked about it before, that people feel psychologically safe to share. , that's more important than ever. and that's why I also feel lucky that we find different ways to connect with people, at G H J as well, whether it's in person, firm-wide events twice a year, or town halls or whatever it may be. Because I also recognize, you know, going back to my point on cookie cutter, like engagement isn't cookie cutter either. What works for one doesn't work for another, so you gotta try different sort of vehicles that will speak to people as well. 

Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah, some, some fabulous initiatives there. We could do a whole podcast on how you pick a curriculum to develop interviews, but you, you touched upon something I've, and I think this is really important as the last question to before our closing questions, which is, yeah. Some of the work that you are doing for the modern workplace, addressing mental health, diversity, equity, inclusion, and accessibility. I personally loved hearing about versions one, two, and three. yeah, could you share that, please? 

Alex Seiler

Sure. on as far as. Just my overall approach to it from a people strategy standpoint as well. Yeah, so, so yeah. I think that for a lot of people, leaders, when they come in in particular, they have to think about transforming. The first question is, where do I start from? Right? This feels like a really big mountain decline. And so I'm a big fan of breaking things down into digestible bite size chunks, and so I'm a big fan of the 1.0 2.0 3.0 model as you were alluding to, so you know, 1.0 being basically, how can we get brilliant at the basics, right? Because we're not brilliant yet, right? So that's really the 1.0, the 2.0 is, okay, now we've got brilliant at the basics. How do we take things to the next level? How do we refine it? How do we make it even better? what can we tweak, what can we adjust? Things of that nature. And then the 3.0 really? Is you should be at a place where frankly it's not just good, it's great. You've got something that is really pretty stellar. and I think you've probably got inputs from outside, shared best practices to even refine it further, make it the best of the best. So that's kind of what I look at from the 1.0 2.8 3.0. And it's interesting cuz I've, we've got our people team retreat next week. In Utah and I've actually associated a theme with ours, which is bringing our partners to the 1.0 and our staff to the 2.0. And the reason I say that is last year we purely focused on our staff and getting brilliant at the basics. And now how do we refine and do things even better for them? And we haven't even scratched the surface on how to make the partner experience better. So this year, , it's brilliant at the basics time for, for that population. So hopefully that example showcases how, how I approach it, and a reminder that if you try to achieve everything at once, you'll achieve absolutely nothing as that age old adage goes.

Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah, that is better than perfect. fascinated. And, and going into the closing questions, what's one piece of advice that you wish you had when you started your career in hr?

Alex Seiler

Yeah. it's a great question. and I think that. One thing, a couple of things actually stand out. One that hope is not a strategy. , that's one, one thing that, that, that I, that I always say is that, and don't make, make assumptions. Always ask the question. I think I. I definitely made assumptions around the people in HR space when I first started, and my thinking has evolved so much since I stepped in and, and did this. Scary to say I've been doing this over 18 years. in that expands, things have changed so much. and I also think that. Your capabilities and your interests and your skills also evolve and what you like can change. and I didn't necessarily think that earlier in my career, and that's been more of an awakening in the last couple of years as well. and I think really lean on. Your mentors, find out who those mentors are. I personally have had a lot of fantastic informal mentors, both, you know, leaders within the business and and people or HR leaders. And the combination is being so great for me, and they're still friends or what I consider part of my personal board of directors today. So, and they've reshaped my thinking over time too. 

Nasser Oudjidane

And are you listening, or have listened, read or watched something that you find particularly valuable, that's inspired you, that you think could, be of value to our audience? 

Alex Seiler 

Yeah. there's a few things that, that, that I love, personally is, I. I'm a big fan of, Kim Scott's Radical Candor. I think part of that also just speaks to my leadership style. I'm very direct, but in a kind, compassionate, constructive way. I think people associate directness with, it's all gotta be negative and you, you can do it with frankly. Unless you're being quote unquote, you know, not a nice person. I know there's keywords I could use, but I'm recognizing we're on a podcast, . So, but you know, you can do it in a very kind way. but still get your point across. I is a big one. I think another one for me is I like a lot of different books on adaptive leadership because again, depending on where you go, different companies have worked at, you've gotta continue to remember that you need to adapt to other people. They will not adapt to you. . So, I'd say that one of the books I really like is The Practice of Adaptive Leadership. That's another book that's, that's really great. and then, frankly, anything by Patrick Lencioni. So, you know, I'm a big fan of the Five Dysfunctions of the Team and we'll say the Advantage, anything that really focuses on organizational health, and how you remain organizationally heal healthy.

Nasser Oudjidane

We'll put them in the show notes. Last one. What, if any, thoughts, value or phrase do you live by? 

Alex Seiler

I think it's, it's the, there's so many these days for me, I'm wondering what my team would quote me on. probably the ones that I mentioned before, combination. team within a team is critical. the hope is not a strategy and don't, don't make assumptions. Ask the questions. because I see people love whether people love making assumptions, and I'm like, where did this come from? and then the other one is, for me is context is, context is key. So, you don't know how, you don't know. To get to a new destination, if you dunno where you've started from.

‍Nasser Oudjidane

Yeah. Alex, this has been awesome. Thank you for your time. 

Alex Seiler

Thanks a lot, Nasser I appreciate it.